UK plane shot down by Patriot

[Michael Dorosh]

SpinDoc - you are correct, of course, in that much of that is indeed open to wider interpretation. I think we both know how far that will be pursued!

 

[RoyalHighlander]

I have a question to put to our learned members here. the U.S states thay are doing this to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddams regime.. Why didnt they go into Afganistan to liberate them from the Russians???? maybe they didnt think they would or could win? They seem to allways pick a fight with some one they are sure they can beat it seems. Correct me if im wrong

This statement was meant, toungue in cheek, I was not seriously asking why they did what they did... Im close to 50 yrs old and have seen quite a bit. I was being sarcastic in my question.. looking to elicite some educated replies....

 

[Bringer]

Ghost - Fair enough. I didn‘t read "M16" as the M16 family.

On the subject of them going fully automatic now, the M4 is still single/3rb, and the M4A1 is single/automatic. The M4A1 is also known as the M4A1 (SOF Variant) and differs from the basic M4 in that it features a flat top rail and a removable carrying handle.

Everything I‘ve read (and heard from a friend who recently ETS‘d from the Rangers) has the M4A1 only being issued to Rangers, SOF, and SOF Aviation units. The M4 is being issued to regular army as a replacement to the M16A2.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I asked two americans today and got two different answers. I‘m gonna try and find out for sure.
On TV i could have sworn i saw members of the 3rd infantry division i think it was using m4s with flat top rails.
This will give me more cause to watch cnn heh
I would much rather a weapon with the ability to use automatc fire then a 3 shot burst

 

[sarsteve]

Well, at least the Yanks can now show that the Patriot does work, unlike during the front 9.

 

[Jungle]

Hi there sarsteve... you are obviously a SAR Tech, and it is very interesting that you should appear on this topic. Are you guys starting to look into CSAR (Combat SAR for those not in the know) ? I know the crew of that particular Tornado did not survive, but if they had the coalition would have sent their teams in to get them out. If I was a CDN pilot, I would seriously question what would happen if I was shot down over enemy territory. Maybe we could send a few unarmed guys in orange suits but... I don‘t mean to be sarcastic, but it certainly is a capability we should have looked into long ago.

 

[RoyalHighlander]

Boy did we ever get off topic or what?

 

[sarsteve]

Jungle, nope not a SarTech. Ex-Nav, retired shortly after returning from the sandy place during the front 9 of this game. Currently in the SAR world in Oz.The CF did take a look at CSAR back in the late ‘80s. I just happened to be part of the experiment, which next to no-one knew about. The idea was to use Troopers, specifically trained in the role, as opposed to using already trained SarTechs. Work was done in Pet with the Regiment and 427. It appeared that the project would get the go-ahead, but alas, the budget cuts after GW1 screwed that up.

With regards to CSAR in the Gulf, we actually had a miserable record of success, all due to clashes within the command structure. Stormin‘ Norman hated anything that might be considered SF or SpecOps. Screwed morale up amongst alot of the aircrew at the time.

With regards this particular incident involving the Patriot, I can say that RAF crews are extremely pissed, not only at the Yanks, but at their own bosses who are trying to paper over the incident. Brits are fed up at having to worry more about the Yanks than the Iraqis.

 

[Zoomie]

As for the CSAR side of things, SARSTEVE pretty much summed up the CFs capabilities. Peacetime = yes, Wartime = No. The CAFs (read: Airforce, not Canadian Armed Forces) official position on this subject is that CF pilots will be pulled out of enemy territory by its allies resources,(ie US CSAR).
During our BSERE and ASERE (Basic/Advanced Survival Escape Resistance Evasion) training we are taught the proper way to contact the coordinating forces that are in charge of bringing us home.

 

[Jungle]

Thanks sarsteve. Actually, I was in the CAR in the late 80‘s and never heard of this... anyways, as zoomie pointed out, we seem to be relying on our allies for more and more things that we should be able to do ourselves. If it ever came to having to decide between extracting one of theirs or one of ours, which way would they go ?
RoyalHighlander, I thought I was somewhat in line with the topic, since we were discussing downed planes...