UK used white phosphorus in Iraq

[Kat Stevens]

so could bullets, being made from health harming lead and all

 

[enfield]

The US seems to be doing a poor job of dicussing this.
From today's news:



U.S. official admits phosphorus used as weapon in Iraq
Last Updated Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:57:51 EST
CBC News
A spokesman for the U.S. military has admitted that soldiers used white phosphorus as an "incendiary weapon" while trying to flush out insurgents in the northern Iraqi city of Fallujah last year.
 
Smoke from the Fallujah railroad station after U.S. bombing, early Nov. 9, 2004. (AP file Photo / Anja Niedringhaus) 
"White phosphorus is a conventional munition," Lt.-Col. Barry Venable told the British Broadcasting Corporation. "It is not a chemical weapon. They are not outlawed or illegal."

He added that though used mostly to provide smokescreens and flashes of light, in the Fallujah battle, "it was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants."

High-ranking U.S. officials had earlier insisted that the substance, which can burn skin to the bone, was used only to help illuminate battle scenes.

"U.S. forces do not use napalm or white phosphorus as weapons," the American ambassador to London, Robert Tuttle, wrote in a letter to the Independent newspaper.

An unknown number of Iraqi women and children died of phosphorus burns during the hostilities, Italian documentary makers covering the battle for Fallujah have claimed.

 

Other reporters on the scene have said U.S. forces used a combination of white phosphorus and explosives known as "shake 'n' bake."

Venable's comments could expose the United States to allegations that it has been using chemical weapons in Iraq.

The suspicion that former president Saddam Hussein was developing chemical weapons, as well as biological and nuclear ones, was one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the 2003 invasion of the Persian Gulf country.

 

[AmmoTech90]

It's been a while so I can't tell you the exact granades we were using or even exactly what they look like.  From what I remember it was a tubular body with a rounded base, and it was light green in colour.  I assumed it was the C1 (HCC1A1?), but if you're right about the C1 being a bursting granade then it must have been something else.

I never said the C1 was a bursting grenade.  In fact I said "The L5 smoke is an emission smoke grenade, similar to an in service hand smoke grenade, that does not burst."
The C1 is not a bursting grenade unless something goes wrong (emission hole is blocked and gas building up ruptures it).  It can produce a lot a flame out of the emission holes and someone holds onto a triggered smoke grenade they will get burnt, as well if you roll on to by accident, or try to pick it up with your bare hands to stop it starting a fire.  There are plenty of ways to seriously burn yourself with a C1.
And unless it was someones private stash, they did not just "issue out WP grenades instead of the ones we normally use".  That is a very good way to get someone killed, not just burnt hand.  Some serious failure in range/ex safety staff if the troops were not aware of the pyro they were issued.

Any way, back on topic-
WP is not a chemical weapon anymore than C4 is.
WP can be used combat but you can't target civilian with it.  I thought that was an integral part of LOAC, no targeting of civilians with any sort of weapon.
It sucks to get hit by WP (I have friends that have been) it hurts like the devil
It sucks to fight a WP or RP fire (personal experience) but is quite simple
Smoke in general does a crap job of illuminating anything, seems like the media is smoking something (hopefully not WP).

 

[Infanteer]

U.S. official admits phosphorus used as weapon in Iraq
Last Updated Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:57:51 EST
CBC News
A spokesman for the U.S. military has admitted that soldiers used white phosphorus as an "incendiary weapon" while trying to flush out insurgents in the northern Iraqi city of Fallujah last year.

Well duhh - it's right in many of the Fallujah AAR's that are common knowledge....

 

[48Highlander]

I never said the C1 was a bursting grenade.  In fact I said "The L5 smoke is an emission smoke grenade, similar to an in service hand smoke grenade, that does not burst."
The C1 is not a bursting grenade unless something goes wrong (emission hole is blocked and gas building up ruptures it).  It can produce a lot a flame out of the emission holes and someone holds onto a triggered smoke grenade they will get burnt, as well if you roll on to by accident, or try to pick it up with your bare hands to stop it starting a fire.  There are plenty of ways to seriously burn yourself with a C1.
And unless it was someones private stash, they did not just "issue out WP grenades instead of the ones we normally use".  That is a very good way to get someone killed, not just burnt hand.  Some serious failure in range/ex safety staff if the troops were not aware of the pyro they were issued.

Ok now I'm really confused.  The C1 DOES contain WP does it not?  If it does, then it is a WP smoke grenade, right?  And if they don't burst, then why is it a major safety issue for them to be issued out to the troops on an ex?

Ofcourse, you're probably gonna come back and say there's no WP inside a C1 and make me feel dumb   But that was the impression we were under at the time.  If there's no WP inside it then that explains a lot.

 

[Dissident]

And if they don't burst, then why is it a major safety issue for them to be issued out to the troops on an ex?

the smoke is toxic. And some people are not quick enough with the gas mask. Like it happened on the BTE.

 

[Pikache]

Just saw on CTV newsnet that US admitted to using WP to engage insurgents.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

"Admitted" suggests they were doing something wrong.  I would suggest that, in light of the current CW laws, they were not and that they have little - if anything - to explain or apologize for.

Now if only they'd said that in the first place instead of tapdancing!  :-\

 

[Kirkhill]

I think if you check the releases "State Department"  was saying "Oh no, not us" while the Pentagon was saying "Yeah. So what?".

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Very true.  It seems as though the State Department flinched a tad.

 

[TCBF]

I last threw a No.80 WP Smoke Grenade in the summer of 1974.  They were from a 1954 batch, and a bunch  did not go off.

Most of the hand held smoke I have thrown since was signalling smoke from Pains Wessex, or the HC smoke (HCC1A1 and derivatives).  I have also used the large 30 minute HC smoke pots, and once fell on top of one and got a mouthfull.  This was long before they told us that HC smoke may not be all that healthy.

In Kandahar in 2002, we turned in our normal MBGD grenades for the new "double pulse" ones for the Coyotes.  I got to fire a bank of four grenades hatches down.  They arced out, burst WP in mid air, hit the ground, and began dispensing a thick screening smoke.  Nice, but a thousand bucks a pop.

I suppose, if one of our guys ever sticks the venturi of a Carl G into the port of a bunker and pulls the trigger, some ComSymp cumbubble while whine about Canada using "Blast Over-Pressure Weapons".

Tom

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ok now I'm really confused.   The C1 DOES contain WP does it not?   If it does, then it is a WP smoke grenade, right?   And if they don't burst, then why is it a major safety issue for them to be issued out to the troops on an ex?

Ofcourse, you're probably gonna come back and say there's no WP inside a C1 and make me feel dumb   But that was the impression we were under at the time.   If there's no WP inside it then that explains a lot.

The Grenade, Smoke, HCC1A1 is loaded with Hexachloroethane (the HC), which has proven carcinogenic in mice,http://books.nap.edu/html/toxi/. This is why they now require the use of the respirator when exposed to it and why you don't see it as often. You'll mostly get the Pains Wessex stuff now.

I have not seen the NO. 80 MK1 Grenade (WP) since Hohne Gun Camp in the early 70's when we fired them from the Centurion MBSGDs.

 

[TCBF]

The Number 80 was hand thrown.

Tom

 

[a_majoor]

If we really want to burn them out of bunkers and hard points, I would suggest flame throwers or those Russian "flame rockets" (think RPG with an incediary warhead). Thermobaric weapons can also be used for those FedEx moments (when you positively have to kill them...).

This is much more precise than that messy WP stuff (which is hard as hell to put out, I once lost a boot after exposing a bit which had been buried in the earth for god knows how long...), and also offers "cool" hollywood optics for those film at 10 newsclips. Might as well give the ignorent something exciting to watch for a change.

 

[Kirkhill]

If we really want to burn them out of bunkers and hard points, I would suggest flame throwers

You volunteering to carry one?

 

[Britney Spears]

Well, we were hoping one of you old fogeys might have the course, you know, back when flamethrower was a  QL4.......


As I understand flamethrowers have been superceded by man portable thermobaric weapons. The Chinese army still uses them for the benefit of the press, but then most of the Chinese army is only there for theatrical effect anyway.

 

[Kirkhill]

Old fogey  suitably chastised Young Lady.  Besides not old enough to remember Life Buoys and Wasps - have to watch old movies for those.

 

[TCBF]

"...but then most of the Chinese army is only there for theatrical effect anyway." - Britney Spears

Confuscious say "Watch out most for hidden hand you do not see!"

;D

Tom

 

[AmmoTech90]

Ok now I'm really confused.  The C1 DOES contain WP does it not?  If it does, then it is a WP smoke grenade, right?  And if they don't burst, then why is it a major safety issue for them to be issued out to the troops on an ex?

Ofcourse, you're probably gonna come back and say there's no WP inside a C1 and make me feel dumb   But that was the impression we were under at the time.  If there's no WP inside it then that explains a lot.

There is no WP in a C1 so your second para is correct but don't feel dumb.  Just make sure that if you ever teach young troops, your facts are correct.  Dont worry about saying "I'll get back to you."  It's better than BSing and sending 30 troops off to continue their career with bad info.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Number 80 was hand thrown.

Tom

It is also what we used in the Centurion MBSGD. First we did a circuit test with a light, then we loaded a squib in that propelled the grenade. Finally the grenade was slid in, including the spoon and the pin was pulled. When the button was pushed, the squib fired, launching the grenade (far enough you hoped, as the squibs were old also), releasing the spoon and firing the charge.