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UN Report: World's Tensions Caused by ISR-Palestinian Conflict

North Star said:
Colin P,

I recently came back from 25 days in Egypt, travelling the Nile Valley and Western Sahara. The only ads I saw on television were for aid to Lebanon and the Palestinian Territories.

Oddly enough, the humanitarian disaster right next door (Darfur) wasn't mentioned. Only the BBC had stuff on it.

It's not only our media, but theirs. I suspect the motives of their media (support only the Umma) are far more calculated than ours (where can I get a latte and a ethernet jack?)

Similar in Malaysia where mostly only the Islamic view gets shown, although the citizens there are a bit more free to explore for different views. I feel for the average Pal, caught between a rock and a hard place. Everytime Israel eases up on the border crossings, some nutbars attacks it or tries to smuggle a bomber through. Their are Israelis that try to keep economic partnerships going, but the Pals involved have to be careful or they will be lynched as "spies" Hamas does not want any form of normalcy, hard to recruit suicide bombers if people have jobs, hope and aren't being shot at by the IDF.
 
Bo said:
What economic prosperity? Israel already controlled most of the West Bank through checkpoints, incursions on populated areas, controlled roads and curfews.
Explain how a couple dozen checkpoints can control an entire country of millions of people?
No country in the world would accept being occupied. Why should Palestine accept that? Israel should withdraw all settlements and troops out of the West Bank, then we can talk.
What happens every time Israel withdraws? Do you not notice the pattern? Do you recall the beautiful greenhouses that were obliterated by the Palestinians when given to them? They now build tunnels there into Israel to kill more Israelis.

This war has absolutely nothing to do with economic conditions and everything to do with cultist behavior. Every inch of ground ceded to the Palestinians is ground that Israel will one day have to shed blood to recapture or pacify.
That's it, keep trying to make Palestine sound like it is a threat to Israel. What a joke! Should I even get into what's in Israel's arsenal? Or what they get from the US?
Israel's arsenal is powerful because of who else surrounds them. Those others fuel this conflict. If it were simply Palestine vs Israel (Painting Israel as Goliath) it'd be one thing, but it's really every Islamic government in the area Vs Israel (Painting Israel as David). The Palestinians have sophisticated anti-tank weaponry now. It's really a matter of time until they are able to lead offensive assaults.
So we have an illegal occupation and people are still disputing the cause of this conflict?
Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Illegal under who's law? I do believe the law of self-defense is one of the most sacred and inalienable laws since the history of laws! The UN is an authority on nothing but waste. If someone had in their mandate for life an article that you, personally, were to be killed, would you not feel obliged to prevent that from happening?


 
I just read on the 'ticker news' that Egypt is holding a Palestine legislator for questioning as he had 2 million dollars on him trying to cross into Egypt.
 
trying to cross INTO Egypt?
sounds like this guy is just taking money to his local branch of Crédit Suisse.
There have been several attempts to bring money into Gaza - to pay gov't employees / and these guys would be stopped and the $$ seized & held
 
Yrys said:
Hijack

I sense irony here, but I don't know how the west bank look before 1950...

Could someone cue me in, please?

End hijack

As tlg was saying Yrys, West Bank was lost by the Palestinians when their Arab friends wrote a check they couldn't cash.  They started a war and lost the war quickly and lost the land.

In 1947 the UN agreed that the Israelis should get all of modern Israel minus the  West Bank, the Golan, Gaza and Jerusalem.  That was too much land for the Palestinians and the Arabs.  So they launched their wars to drive the Jewish settlers out of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Galilee all the places not, supposedly, currently in dispute.  They attacked and failed in 1948.  They failed again in 1967.

Having said that the Palestinians didn't offer the land to the Israelis and there are many Hasidic Jews that had lived in Palestine (centred on Hebron and Jerusalem)prior to the 1880s who were opposed to the state of Israel.  And, as can be seen from the continuing actions of some Jewish settlers, there is a faction within Israel that wants to expand still further.

There is enough malfeasance on both sides here, not to mention all the external actors, to make it impossible (IMHO) to declare who is in the right and who in the wrong.

On the other hand the locals should be used to this by now.  They have been the grass below the elephants' feet since before the Egyptians and the Hittites contested the ground 4000 years ago.
 
Dare said:
Explain how a couple dozen checkpoints can control an entire country of millions of people?

''A Checkpoint is a barrier built by the Israeli Defense Forces or Border Police to limit the movement of Palestinians who lack necessary permits. Normally, Israeli citizens, settlers and foreigners move through the checkpoints without being stopped. Palestinians with permits frequently experience extreme delays and humiliation at these barriers. On occasions, deaths have occurred at checkpoints when individuals, including pregnant women in labor, have been unable to reach hospitals. Often farm produce, especially from Gaza, has spoiled at checkpoints due to delays of up to several days.''

"What is a checkpoint? Let me give you a brief description. Usually it's some cement blocks in the road that you have to stop at. Soldiers with big guns motion for you to come forward when they want; sometimes they'll keep cars for hours while they stand around and joke with each other. Usually there's maybe one soldier checking a long line of idling cars and one checking a long line of tired pedestrians, and about five sitting in the shade, doing no apparent 'work.'  Some times they let you through with a cursory ID check, sometimes they make you unload all of your gear, they check under the vehicle, they question you about irrelevant facts, and they turn you back. At checkpoints near Jewish settlements, there is a separate way, without a stop, for settlers, who are distinguished by yellow Israeli license plates as opposed to green Palestinian ones. Allegedly set up for Israeli 'security,' their effect, as I'm sure I've said before, is to slowly strangle Palestinian life and freedom."  (reflections from Liala)

http://www.jatonyc.org/checkpoint.html



What happens every time Israel withdraws? Do you not notice the pattern? Do you recall the beautiful greenhouses that were obliterated by the Palestinians when given to them? They now build tunnels there into Israel to kill more Israelis.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they were busy building more settlements in the West Bank! Nice distraction though. And do you remember the amount of media coverage the withdrawal received? All you would see on CNN were poor Israeli families being forced out of there homes. But NO coverage on the increase in building settlements in the West Bank where Palestinians were routinely having their homes bulldozed down to make room for Israeli settlements.
And Gaza still isn't really free. Israel still controls all land, sea and air borders.


This war has absolutely nothing to do with economic conditions and everything to do with cultist behavior. Every inch of ground ceded to the Palestinians is ground that Israel will one day have to shed blood to recapture or pacify.Israel's arsenal is powerful because of who else surrounds them. Those others fuel this conflict. If it were simply Palestine vs Israel (Painting Israel as Goliath) it'd be one thing, but it's really every Islamic government in the area Vs Israel (Painting Israel as David). The Palestinians have sophisticated anti-tank weaponry now. It's really a matter of time until they are able to lead offensive assaults.Possession is 9/10 of the law.

This is not a war. Israel has occupied Palestine and has built settlements ON PALESTINIAN LAND for over 400,000 settlers. This conflict is about occupation and the effects of living under occupation.

Illegal under who's law? I do believe the law of self-defense is one of the most sacred and inalienable laws since the history of laws! The UN is an authority on nothing but waste. If someone had in their mandate for life an article that you, personally, were to be killed, would you not feel obliged to prevent that from happening?

  • Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".
  • Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property in occupied territory. The confiscation of land by the Israeli government for settlement construction is in violation of this article.
  • Article 55 of the Hague Convention stipulates that "the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct." This means that the occupying power does not become the owner of the territories and properties of the occupied country and does not use them for serving the interests of its civilians. This rule applies to all of the occupied territory's natural resources.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

There are too many laws that Israel has broken to list here. Those are just a few regarding occupation.


Yes Kirkhill, this whole Palestinian-Israel subject has been beaten to death, I know. But as long as people on this site continue to label Palestinians as terrorists while praising Israeli actions, I'll voice my opinion and try to shed some light on things the media fails to mention.
 
As I'm busy trying to write an essay for Basic I'm going to make this quick. I don't see the people on this forum "label Palestinians as terrorists". I see that people are ACTUALLY supporting FACTS for BOTH sides that BOTH sides are EQUALLY wrong. You're just pissed (Like the PA) that no one is completely on your side here. I'm on the Israeli side. I've said before and I'll say it again. When someone come in to YOUR house to kick your teeth in and steel you're belongings and instead you not only beat the bloody piss out of them and take over their house(s) (bad metaphor I know), you have no right to bitch and complain. You lost, suck it up. Now you can either acknowledge that you screwed the pooch, or you can pull of the whole pestilence act, which the PA seems to happy to allow. Or you can try many years later to try and take back your home by force. This happened during the Yom Kippur War (which Egypt and Syria started on a religious holiday), and get your lowly can kicked yet again. Shall I continue with who started what, and why it was started. Although I've got this essay to write I would love to debate facts over unfacts (falses?).
 
There is a colourful map in this Wiki article which illustrates what the West Bank started out as and, to a reasonably astute observer, why in Arab hands it constitutes a considerable defense problem for the Israeli state.  Yes, it's occupied land.  It'll stay occupied.  If you declare your intention to kill someone and he wins the resulting scrap, don't whine about the consequences.
 
Bo said:
''A Checkpoint is a barrier built by the Israeli Defense Forces or Border Police to limit the movement of Palestinians who lack necessary permits. Normally, Israeli citizens, settlers and foreigners move through the checkpoints without being stopped. Palestinians with permits frequently experience extreme delays and humiliation at these barriers. On occasions, deaths have occurred at checkpoints when individuals, including pregnant women in labor, have been unable to reach hospitals. Often farm produce, especially from Gaza, has spoiled at checkpoints due to delays of up to several days.''

"What is a checkpoint? Let me give you a brief description. Usually it's some cement blocks in the road that you have to stop at. Soldiers with big guns motion for you to come forward when they want; sometimes they'll keep cars for hours while they stand around and joke with each other. Usually there's maybe one soldier checking a long line of idling cars and one checking a long line of tired pedestrians, and about five sitting in the shade, doing no apparent 'work.'  Some times they let you through with a cursory ID check, sometimes they make you unload all of your gear, they check under the vehicle, they question you about irrelevant facts, and they turn you back. At checkpoints near Jewish settlements, there is a separate way, without a stop, for settlers, who are distinguished by yellow Israeli license plates as opposed to green Palestinian ones. Allegedly set up for Israeli 'security,' their effect, as I'm sure I've said before, is to slowly strangle Palestinian life and freedom."  (reflections from Liala)

http://www.jatonyc.org/checkpoint.html
They're looking for suicide bombers... because suicide bombers kill Israelis. And "delays, humiliation, ID checks, etc" do not equate to control of the millions of people.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they were busy building more settlements in the West Bank! Nice distraction though. And do you remember the amount of media coverage the withdrawal received? All you would see on CNN were poor Israeli families being forced out of there homes. But NO coverage on the increase in building settlements in the West Bank where Palestinians were routinely having their homes bulldozed down to make room for Israeli settlements.
And Gaza still isn't really free. Israel still controls all land, sea and air borders.
No, all I saw on CNN was the celebration of western academics, journalists and CAIR types. I saw Israeli citizens portrayed as greedy squatters. Were you actually watching CNN? I really doubt it. Nice distraction, though.. *ISRAEL WITHDREW* and to no benefit to Israel, and the Palestinians squandered all that was given to them. Israel did what the left want them to do, and it served them in no way at all but to bring their enemies closer. If every major political party in Palestine wasn't committed to destroying Israel, I'm sure there would be little need for aggressive expansion into enemy territory, and we could all hold hands and sing songs together.
This is not a war. Israel has occupied Palestine and has built settlements ON PALESTINIAN LAND for over 400,000 settlers. This conflict is about occupation and the effects of living under occupation.
Nonsense. It's a war. Either Palestine is a state or it is not a state. You can't have it both ways. Either way, the occupants of this disputed territory have conducted Acts of War on Israel. Just because the combatants are not engaged all the time doesn't reverse that fact.  Palestine does not acknowledge the existence of Israel. It is not Israel that makes war upon Palestine, but the other way around. Everytime Israel disengages, they get attacked. Enough said.
  • Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".
  • Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property in occupied territory. The confiscation of land by the Israeli government for settlement construction is in violation of this article.
  • Article 55 of the Hague Convention stipulates that "the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct." This means that the occupying power does not become the owner of the territories and properties of the occupied country and does not use them for serving the interests of its civilians. This rule applies to all of the occupied territory's natural resources.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

There are too many laws that Israel has broken to list here. Those are just a few regarding occupation.
That is all predicated on Israel being a "occupier".

Art. 42.

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

Hmm. So, perhaps the checkpoints can be considered occupied territory. Considering the Israeli army does not extend authority to all of Palestine. The Palestinian National Authority does this and has this authority.

Would you like me to go through the laws that Palestinians have broken? It's quite a bit longer .. and more accurately applied.
Yes Kirkhill, this whole Palestinian-Israel subject has been beaten to death, I know. But as long as people on this site continue to label Palestinians as terrorists while praising Israeli actions, I'll voice my opinion and try to shed some light on things the media fails to mention.
Yeah, keep spreading the light. Palestinians are highly supportive of terrorist groups. Terrorist groups that the Government of Canada identify as terrorist groups.

Do you agree with the Government of Canada?
Do you think that Israel has a right to exist, at all?
If yes, do you think Israel has a right to exist in the middle east?
If yes, by which borders must they fit into?
If yes, how should Israel respond to rocket attacks and suicide bombings?
If yes, how should Israel respond to threats of neighbouring governments?

If no.. seen.
 
Bo said:
blah blah blah..terrorists are good...blah blah...Iran is good...blah blah...Israel is the source of all Evil....blah blah...I am a terrorist sympathizer
yeah, we get it. You don't grasp who the good guys are. We understand. Enough already.
 
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