Unions/transparency (split from PMJT: The First 100 Days)

[The Bread Guy]

I belong to OPSEU and I despise them.

Though I'll take happily the strike pay in a few weeks...... ;D

Diogenes, we've found our honest man  ;D

All joking aside, the Thunder Bay fracas earlier this month (and others elsewhere in Ontario which, from what I understand, we don't hear about as much) shows Ontario has got to do a LOT more to make corrections safer.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

 

Damn,...I KNEW I should have put a sarcasm thingy there.  *slaps self*

 

[ballz]

First Nations bands are so irrelevant to this conversation. We're comparing a *government* (that's what these native bands are, a government... that receives a gross amount of money from our governments, unfortunately) to a private organization. The political party comparison, fair enough, but comparing unions to First Nations governments? :facepalm:

 

[ballz]

It is very optional...........don't apply for jobs that have a Union.

I agree with you. Here is what I haven't figured out.... what legislation is stopping a union workplace from hiring a non-unionised worker, and what legislation is in place forcing that non-unionised worker to join the union when he is hired? Is it legislation, or is that just something that is in the collective bargaining agreement?

If its in the collective-bargaining agreement, fine and dandy, that means the employer agreed to it. If it's legislated, that's horsesh*t.

Oh wait,.....you want the general better working conditions and pay but without having to contribute anything to it?
OK,..I get it now..... :

I'm sure you must be speaking hypothetical and not directing that at me given my job and all its illustrious "better working conditions."

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually Ballz, its in legislation, all of it. In each province and at the Federal level, these Acts are known as the Labour Codes.

And if you think you, as an individual, have freedom of association with regards to Union and your employer, then unfortunately, the Supreme Court said nay nay, you don't. Being forced into the bargaining unit, forced to be covered by the contract negotiated by the Union, forced to pay your dues even if the Union uses them to pay for supporting a politician you don't care for even if it has nothing to do with your work contract, all of that has been found by the Supreme Court to be a reasonable limit put on your freedom of association.

And, BTW, what you described yourself as part of in Fort McMurray does not strike me as a unionized company. Rather, it sounds to me to have been more in line with Trade unions, sometimes known as guilds, where a specific trade has an association that determines who can call themselves tradesmen in that particular trade (such as Industrial Welders, or Plumber, etc.) and then has the power to negotiate with specific employer's groups (such as General Contractor's Association) the minimum standards and minimum wages permitted for the various level of tradesmen. That is not working in a Unionized shop.

 

[ballz]

Actually Ballz, its in legislation, all of it. In each province and at the Federal level, these Acts are known as the Labour Codes.

And if you think you, as an individual, have freedom of association with regards to Union and your employer, then unfortunately, the Supreme Court said nay nay, you don't. Being forced into the bargaining unit, forced to be covered by the contract negotiated by the Union, forced to pay your dues even if the Union uses them to pay for supporting a politician you don't care for even if it has nothing to do with your work contract, all of that has been found by the Supreme Court to be a reasonable limit put on your freedom of association.

Right, and this is what I thought, which is, as I said in my last post horseshit. But the answer to all this is not *more* legislation, it's to repeal all that legislation which you just laid out. A little piece of me has died knowing the Supreme Court ruled that all of that is a reasonable limitation.

And, BTW, what you described yourself as part of in Fort McMurray does not strike me as a unionized company. Rather, it sounds to me to have been more in line with Trade unions, sometimes known as guilds, where a specific trade has an association that determines who can call themselves tradesmen in that particular trade (such as Industrial Welders, or Plumber, etc.) and then has the power to negotiate with specific employer's groups (such as General Contractor's Association) the minimum standards and minimum wages permitted for the various level of tradesmen. That is not working in a Unionized shop.

You're 100% correct on that. It was a trade union and not a unionized shop.

 

[dapaterson]

Unions are dictatorial.  My wife is a Federal Civil Servant.  As such, she has NO CHOICE but to be a member of the union. 

Wrong.  Completely wrong.  There is no legal obligation to belong to the union.

As established in Lavigne v. OPSEU, however, she is required to be part of the bargaining unit, and to pay the recognized bargaining agent dues.  But she is under no obligation to sign a card and join the union.

The fact that so many Federal and Provincial unions have run attack ads in both Federal and Provincial Elections points to the fact that their leadership do what they want, not necessarily what the membership want.  That is complete BS. 

Then membership can depose their leaders and repalce them with leadership that will better represent their interests and desires.

Unions fighting for the rights of their membership in their workplace was a good thing.  Unions stepping outside of those bounds is far from what they were set up to do.  Banning Third Party Ads should be done.

So only political parties should be able to advertise?  No other voices should be heard in elections?

The past few elections we have had have shown the influence that partisan outside organizations have had.  No organization should be "talking for" anyone, nor dictating how one should vote.

No one dictates how anyone should vote.  Look across the NCR during the last federal election: heavily unionized, and the NDP got turfed out. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

First Nations bands are so irrelevant to this conversation. We're comparing a *government* (that's what these native bands are, a government... that receives a gross amount of money from our governments, unfortunately) to a private organization. The political party comparison, fair enough, but comparing unions to First Nations governments? :facepalm:

Unions in Ontario have been receiving millions of dollars from the provincial government to do with as they please. No receipts, not carried on their books, no system of accountability on where it's spent.

Tell me how that's different from First Nations funding.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I don't see any major changes to labour relations on the "First 100 Days" horizon.

However, labour unions are essentially cartels, which means they will tend to be captured by politically active interests; they are definitely in line with lists of demands of the new government.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Wrong.  Completely wrong.  There is no legal obligation to belong to the union.

As established in Lavigne v. OPSEU, however, she is required to be part of the bargaining unit, and to pay the recognized bargaining agent dues.  But she is under no obligation to sign a card and join the union.

She also won't have her job long.

Then membership can depose their leaders and repalce them with leadership that will better represent their interests and desires.

You're kidding right? :rofl:

So only political parties should be able to advertise?  No other voices should be heard in elections?

No, but union members have no say in what party or policies the executive wants to support. If you believe they do, see my previous comment.

No one dictates how anyone should vote.  Look across the NCR during the last federal election: heavily unionized, and the NDP got turfed out.

Sometimes people just get so fed up they just hand out big fuck youse

Now, you may be stating the legalities of opting out of the union or the rights of members to discern their own destiny, but we're talking real world here, not some wonderfully utopian paradise.

 

[ballz]

Unions in Ontario have been receiving millions of dollars from the provincial government to do with as they please. No receipts, not carried on their books, no system of accountability on where it's spent.

Tell me how that's different from First Nations funding.

I suppose there is a real-world argument to be made when you consider the corruption of politicians. What I don't get is how politicians that give money to unions and corporations manage to ever get re-elected. We do get what we deserve! :facepalm:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Where is all this union BS supposed to fit into this thread??

 

[Jarnhamar]

Where is all this union BS supposed to fit into this thread??

I mentioned it originally as one of the things the Liberals did in "The First 100 Days". Take the first steps towards removing the financial transparency that the conservatives placed on unions.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Where is all this union BS supposed to fit into this thread??

Good point - now split, ready to absorb further union discussion.

Milnet.ca Staff