Unit History

[retired@23]

I have been interested in unit and medical history for quite some time.

Does anyone here any evidence that there is a longer standing Medical unit than 23 Field Amb. The dates are from memory I lost most of my documents when I moved and put them in a safe place.


It started with #7 Bearer company raised in Dec 1900. (#1 - 4 were raised in June of 1900) #1 Halifax went to South Africa (i think)
Comanded by George S Rennie MD  latter CO of an Artillery unit in WW1 and MP for Hamilton East

than on the reorg of the medical service in circa 1907 was named #12 and #19 was added latter.

in 1914 at the start of WW1 No 5 field Amb CEF was raised in Hamilton with recruits from Owen Sound and London as well.

105 years of service to the community of Hamilton in War and Peace.



#12 and 19 stayed in Hamilton

In 1919 No 5 was stood down, REORG again 

in 1920 In honour of overseas service No 12 was renamed No 5 Field Amb and went Overseas in 1939

No 12 was stood down circa 1932.

Reorg again  circa 1954
5 field amb was renamed 16 medical Company

reorg again circa 1973
16 medical company was renamed 23 Med Coy

reorg again circa 2003
23 Med coy was renamed 23 fd amb

 

[Jungle]

Reorg again   circa 1954
5 field amb was renamed 16 medical Company

5 Field Amb is alive and well, now named "5eme Ambulance de Campagne" and part of 5 CMBG.

 

[shadow]

www.forces.gc.ca/cfms_history

I didn't go through it, but there might be some information that would be helpful.  It's an online version of a book my dad helped research that was released in '03.
Hope this helps..
Shadow

 

[old medic]

I have been interested in unit and medical history for quite some time.

Does anyone here any evidence that there is a longer standing Medical unit than 23 Field Amb. The dates are from memory I lost most of my documents when I moved and put them in a safe place.


It started with #7 Bearer company raised in Dec 1900. (#1 - 4 were raised in June of 1900) #1 Halifax went to South Africa (i think)
Comanded by George S Rennie MD  latter CO of an Artillery unit in WW1 and MP for Hamilton East

than on the reorg of the medical service in circa 1907 was named #12 and #19 was added latter.

in 1914 at the start of WW1 No 5 field Amb CEF was raised in Hamilton with recruits from Owen Sound and London as well.

105 years of service to the community of Hamilton in War and Peace.



#12 and 19 stayed in Hamilton

In 1919 No 5 was stood down, REORG again 

in 1920 In honour of overseas service No 12 was renamed No 5 Field Amb and went Overseas in 1939

No 12 was stood down circa 1932.

Reorg again  circa 1954
5 field amb was renamed 16 medical Company

reorg again circa 1973
16 medical company was renamed 23 Med Coy

reorg again circa 2003
23 Med coy was renamed 23 fd amb

The Directorate of History and Heritage does not allow medical units to claim any linage before the creation
of the Canadian Army Medical Corp. (CAMC). Thus units can only trace back to 1904.

General Order Number 5 created the Field Units of the CAMC in 1906. 8 Calvary Field Ambulances, 15 Field Ambulances, 2 Clearing Hospitals (all Reserve).  Many of these are the current Reserve Force Field Ambulances. It also means they share the same dates
of creation.

This also means that in 2006 many of the Reserve Field Ambs will mark their official 100th Birthdays.

The 1919-1920 Re-Org was the result of the Otter Commision. There is an article about it in the Fourth Dimension archive.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimension/2005/jan05/31_fd_e.htm

It released the CAMC re-org in the spring of 1920.

5 (Hamilton) Field Ambulance RCAMC was renamed 16 Medical Company RCAMC in November 1954.
Then next Re-Orgs were in 1965 and 1975. 1965 was because of unification and the units were put underneath
the Service Battalions.  1975 was the re-creation of the independant companies and it was renamed
23 (Hamilton) Medical Company.

PM incoming.

OM

 

[retired@23]

With respect to Directorate of History and Heritage The evidence does not support there claim.
There has been a Standing Medical Unit Hamilton since 04 Dec 1900. That has never reduced to Zero Strength.

In addition If no history is recognized prior to 1904, than why does the Queens Mother Banner which the CFMS so Proudly Marched to (I have been the banner 's escort on 2 occasions) had the Dates 1885 to 1985 to mark 100 years of the Field Hospital sent to the Red River Rebellion. Which I have been told that #1 Field Hospital Claims anticedance.

The other question sent to me was there has been a unit history written. It was Penned by Col Butson GC MD . . . . All in all not too bad a couple of errors and omissions. If you want a copy you can contact the unit in Hamilton. There was also one written about the first world war  called 'Stretcher Bearers at the Double.' There is  a copy in the special collection area of the Hamilton Public Library.

So To answer my first question in my first post No there is not an older standing medical unit in the country.

 

[Cansky]

Quote from old medic
The Directorate of History and Heritage does not allow medical units to claim any linage before the creation
of the Canadian Army Medical Corp. (CAMC). Thus units can only trace back to 1904.

If this is true then why did 1 FD Amb celebrate its 100th aniversary in Sept of 1998?

 

[TCBF]

I am glad to read some medics are interested in their history.  My step-father was with 2 Fd Amb in WW2, from Sicily to  Apeldoorn.  I keep checking with 2 Fd Amb in Petawawa to see if there is a regimental history written, but no one seems to have taken the opportunity to do that while all those vets were alive, and now most are dead.

 

[Cansky]

I hope this link works as I haven't done this before.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFWA_HQ/Documents/Backgrounders/bg_1_FdAmb.PDF

On page 2 it states" On 1 July 1898, 1 Field Ambulance was formed with personnel who served with the forces as far back as the 1873 Riel Rebellion.  At the time of its inception, it was called NO. 1 Bearer Company." 
I let you read the rest as you wish.

Yes the  Canadian Army Medical Corp might be traced back to 1904 and be listed as the first medical unit but IMHO they wouldn't have let 1 FD AMB have a huge todo about 100 years if it wasn't true.  And believe me it was fairly large celebration.
Hope fully this link will help clear things up.
Kirsten

 

[Gunner98]

More history to add to the file.  "No. 1 Field Hospital" was established 1 April, 1885 at the outbreak of the North-West Rebellion.  Before 1885, there was no fixed departmental medical staff, field hospital or ambulance service in existence to provide medical support to troops.  The Surgeon-General, at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Darby Bergin, directed that two field hospitals be established from the medical facilities in Montreal and Toronto.  The first Commanding Officer of No. 1 Field Hospital was Surgeon-Major C.M. Douglas, VC.  He remained the Commanding Officer until it was disbanded at a later date.

 

[old medic]

Good Questions all....

These sorts of things are not just restricted to the medical units either, Alot of the combat arms would like to trace their
history back further then they are officially allowed.

First, to reply to retired@23,  Alot of units claim history older than the Hamilton unit (1900), some right on the DND sites:

http://www.army.dnd.ca/33MEDICAL_PLATOON/Documents/33medn_e.html

" In the fall of 1898, members of the local St. John Ambulance were organized into No. 1 Bearer Company, Canadian Militia, by Dr. Carleton-Jones (later Major-General), as part of the Imperial Scheme of Defence for the Fortress of Halifax. This unit later served in the Boer War as part of 10 Field Hospital Company, 3rd Canadian Contingent. This was the first time in the nation's history that a formed, self-contained medical unit had been deployed for service in an overseas theatre. "

As Kirsten pointed out above, The current 1 Fd Amb claims 1898 as well.

Part of the reasoning for the 1904 date is that prior to the creation of the CAMC, Militia units were on their own to find doctors with
no overseeing body. In most cases, Doctors, Nurses and orderlies were contractors and only in rare cases were actually in the Militia.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/about_us/cfms_history/engraph/chapter1_e.asp?Lev1=5&Lev2=1&Lev3=2

" Until the end of the 19th century, each Canadian regiment recruited its own medical practitioners, and the Canadian Militia had no over-arching medical service... 

...The Canadian Army Medical Corps (CAMC) was formed under General Order No 98 of July 1904, to bring military health care providers together under unified command and control. Its regular component comprised only eight officers (all doctors) and 36 non-commissioned orderlies and storesmen. As well as the medical officers attached to the regiments of the Non-Permanent Active Militia, the reserve component of the CAMC included dental officers, the members of the Canadian Army Nursing Service (who bore officers' rank but were never permitted to exercise military authority), and non-commissioned orderlies and logistics personnel such as storesmen and drivers.

In 1906, the year Colonel Eugène Fiset was promoted from Director General Medical Services to Surgeon General, he organized the CAMC into field-deployable units. In 1914, the regular CAMC numbered 127 all ranks, namely 20 medical officers, five nursing sisters and 102 non-commissioned members. The reserve component was organized as an Army Hospital Corps with eight Cavalry Field Ambulances, fifteen Field Ambulances and two Clearing Hospitals.... "

This is also why Op Celebration last year was the 100th year of the Medical Service (1904-2004).
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/about_us/engraph/OpCel_home_e.asp

The date of 1885 is on the Queen Mother's Banner to recognize the first recorded instance of organized medical support to a Canadian field force.  It is important to remember that date isn't a battle honour. CSS formations can not be awarded battle honours. As that
formation was short lived and disbanded, individual units are prevented from tracing lineage to it.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=hertra&FaqID=33#answer

" Non-combatant units and sub-units operating independently, operating as part of a formation, or attached or in support of a combatant unit cannot gain battle honours for themselves or their parent unit."

However, the rules of lineage come into play here.  You can't exist before your parent organization did.  That's why units are not allowed
to trace anything before 1904.  I have a pub that says such regarding the medical units, and will post it once I re-discover it.

 

[old medic]

I am glad to read some medics are interested in their history.  My step-father was with 2 Fd Amb in WW2, from Sicily to  Apeldoorn.  I keep checking with 2 Fd Amb in Petawawa to see if there is a regimental history written, but no one seems to have taken the opportunity to do that while all those vets were alive, and now most are dead.

Good to hear Tom,

Tracing the Medical Units can be difficult because of the frequent name changes....
The Petawawa unit is relatively new.

The 2 Fd Amb you father would have been with:

2 (Toronto) Field Ambulance RCAMC
in 1954 it was combined with 7 and 16 Field Ambs and renamed to;
26 (Toronto) Medical Company RCAMC and renamed in 1975 to;
25 (Toronto) Medical Company

 

[TCBF]

Which is confusing as heck, as there still is a 2 Fd Amb in Pet. Though I think in the 70s for a bit, they were called Cbt Med Sup Us - CMSUnits.

I remember an article in the Der Kanadier (remember THAT?) about 4 Fd Amb, and it traced it's history to it's formation in Port Arthur or Fort William (both now Thunder Bay).

Is someone keeping track of all this?


I forgot to add - 2 Fd Amb was in fact 2 Cdn Lt Fd Amb, and it supported the First Cdn Armoured Brigade.   I was amazed at how many other empire units my step-father worked with, until I read that 1 CAB was pulled from the Cdns and used as a "fire brigade" for the British 8th Army.   One of the British Army Commanders (Oliver Leese?) said " If you want a job done right, give it to the First Canadian Armoured Brigade."

 

[old medic]

I remember an article in the Der Kanadier (remember THAT?) about 4 Fd Amb, and it traced it's history to it's formation in Port Arthur or Fort William (both now Thunder Bay).

Is someone keeping track of all this?

I remember.. the 4 CMBG 4 Fd Amb donated alot of it memorabilia back to the Thunder Bay unit when it closed out.
There are a few lineage books that trace the units from creation up to the late 1960's.

The lucky unit is Vancouver, it started as 12 Fd Amb, became 24 Med Coy, then 12 Med Coy,
and is now the only unit to have it's orginal number/name back - 12 Fd Amb.

Luck of all the re-numberings.

 

[TCBF]

I have two types of RCAMC battledress shouder flashes:

One type is"
                      ROYAL CANADIAN
                  ARMY MEDICAL CORPS
and the other is:
                  ROYAL CANADIAN ARMY
                      MEDICAL CORPS

 

[retired@23]

One final set question than to those who know history. (I hope)

If the directorate took the CAMC as the parent formation. Than what was the name of the formation that the Bearer companies were raised under. one group was raised in June of 1900 and the second on the 4th of December 1900. the date I am certain of I actually have a photo copy of the order somewhere. I think they name was Canadian Army staff corps or words to that effect.
What was the reasoning for not recognizing this org?
It fits there criteria of self sustaining organization that recruits it;s own medical personal. Maj GS Rennie was not impressed to leave the 13th battalion (now the RHLI) to command a medical unit. Or so the rumor goes

I am not certain of this date, However if Memory serves, 1898 was the formation of The RAMC, #1 Bearer company was not formed until June 1900 in Halifax.  Than sent to with the CEF to South Africa.

The above post is correct about battle honours of CSS and Linage of combat arms. The Lincoln and Wellend locally trace it's unit back to circa 1796. However, no linage is accepted prior to the militia act of 1865. and the current numbering system established. The oldest unofficial combat arms unit is the Royal Newfound land, they fought in 1812 at Stoney Creek, (i sure someone will correct me) as well as others on the east coast.

It is not that I am going to get worked up over a few years. It is just an academic Peer Review thing. Just because it has been written does not necessarily make it true.



Murray

 

[old medic]

I think alot of it boils back the the Militia Act of 1904. It wasn't until then that two things happened.
1 - The creation of many of the Army Corps.
2 - The structure actually came under Canadian Control

Possibly another problem is that the Halifax formations are actually considered British units for lineage purposes:

http://www.gg.ca/governor_general/comm-ch-bg_e.asp

" The Militia was established by the Militia Act of 1868. In the 1870's, a small militia was based in Halifax under the command of a general officer on loan from the British Army.

In 1904, however, a new Militia Act stated that â Å“the Command-in-Chief of the Militia is declared to continue and be vested in the King, and shall be administered by His Majesty or by the Governor General as his representative.â ? This Act also doubled the permanent force to 4000, to provide a garrison to replace the British in Halifax.

This was an important landmark, as it was the beginning of a truly Canadian force, and it reinforced the role of the Governor General as Commander-in-Chief. In 1905, the change to the Militia Act was legalized and reference to the Office of the Governor General became the Office of the Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of the Militia. "

http://members.tripod.com/RegimentalRogue/battlehonours/grod_btlhnrs.htm

" Halifax was established as a garrison in 1749, and following the fall of New France, British garrisons extended into what later became Ontario and Quebec. The last of the garrisons left Canada in 1906."

 

[retired@23]

SO what it boils down to is an act of Parliament stating the creation of the Army Corps. Hence the 1904 for Medical and 1865 for combat arms.
Even if the units were established before hand under specific General Orders. They were not truly Canadian Units until 1904.


Reasonable enough from a historic perspective.
However I still say 104 Years of service to the Community of Hamilton in War and Piece
7 Bearer Company
19 Fd Amb CAMC
12 Fd Amb CAMC
5 Fd Amb CEF and RCAMC and than CEF yet again
16 Med Coy RCAMC
23 (Hamilton) Medical Company CFMS
now

23 Fd Amb (CFHS???)

Murray



23 Fd Amb

 

[old medic]

I hope this link works as I haven't done this before.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFWA_HQ/Documents/Backgrounders/bg_1_FdAmb.PDF

On page 2 it states" On 1 July 1898, 1 Field Ambulance was formed with personnel who served with the forces as far back as the 1873 Riel Rebellion.  At the time of its inception, it was called NO. 1 Bearer Company." 
I let you read the rest as you wish.

Yes the  Canadian Army Medical Corp might be traced back to 1904 and be listed as the first medical unit but IMHO they wouldn't have let 1 FD AMB have a huge todo about 100 years if it wasn't true.  And believe me it was fairly large celebration.
Hope fully this link will help clear things up.
Kirsten

It worked !!
I read the document in the link.  I can't claim to have traced the history of 1 Fd Amb.
I think it raised a few more questions however.

I find it odd that they (in addition to the Halifax unit) claim to be descendant from the Halifax Bearer Company.
Someone will have to sit down some day with all the old General Orders, Militia Orders and CFOO's and figure that
one out. 

Also of note are the sentences relating to WW1 and WW2. That appears to be the history of
1 (Kingston) Field Ambulance RCAMC.  In 1954 it was renamed to 11 Medical Company RCAMC.
(Not to be confused with the unit in Victoria that was originally 13 Fd Amb). I haven't researched
the fate of the Kingston unit, I suspect it was disbanded in the changes in either 59 or 65.
I suspect that's the unit they are drawing the history from.

My reference for that is:
THE CANADIAN ARMY 1855-1965 Lineages - Regimental Histories , By C.E. Dornbusch,  1966 Hope Farm Press Cornwallville New York

It's a rare book now, but can be found in some libraries.

<edited spelling>

 

[old medic]

Reasonable enough from a historic perspective.
However I still say 104 Years of service to the Community of Hamilton in War and Piece
7 Bearer Company
19 Fd Amb CAMC
12 Fd Amb CAMC
5 Fd Amb CEF and RCAMC and than CEF yet again
16 Med Coy RCAMC
23 (Hamilton) Medical Company CFMS
now

23 Fd Amb (CFHS???)

If you can trace it, you should. I bet not to many people would be inclined to do it these days.

During WW2, it would have been refered to as 5 Fd Amb C.A.S.F. ( Canadian Active Service Force )
once activated. 

 

[TCBF]

However, no linage is accepted prior to the militia act of 1865. and the current numbering system established. The oldest unofficial combat arms unit is the Royal Newfound land, they fought in 1812 at Stoney Creek, (i sure someone will correct me) as well as others on the east coast."

The 8 CH (PL) birthday is 4 April 1848, due to the General Order on that day. They trace their lineage to Saunder's Horse, a unit that fought on the losing side of the American Revolution, and then landed  and settled in New Brunswick, maintaining their military capabilities, to a certain extent.

They celebrated their 150th Anniversary in 1998.