Up to 1,500 military housing units sit empty, auditor general says

[Pusser]

I disagree from the standpoint of the actual PMQ from base to base are of the same design, size, age and condition (more or less).  The differences between them are not markedly substancial enough where one could reasonably expect to charge for more features or comforts from one to the next.  (My experiences in Q living are from the early 90`s)  And it`s easy enough to fix that issue for you.  Charge the same, reasonable PMQ rent, regardless of location.  If member resides in the Q`s, then the PLD is adjusted for that member while doing so.

That's just rearranging the deck chairs.  How different is accommodation on the economy different from region to region?  A two bedroom apartment in Halifax is pretty much the same as one in Esquimalt (I having lived in both), but the rental cost can be quite different.  It's all about location, which is why $300K will get you a mansion in some places and a shoebox in others.  Reducing PLD for PMQ dwellers vice others just makes things more complicated and really doesn't change much.  It makes much more sense to charge market rates for PMQs. give everybody the same PLD and then let members choose how they want to arrange things.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That's just rearranging the deck chairs.  How different is accommodation on the economy different from region to region?  A two bedroom apartment in Halifax is pretty much the same as one in Esquimalt (I having lived in both), but the rental cost can be quite different.  It's all about location, which is why $300K will get you a mansion in some places and a shoebox in others.  Reducing PLD for PMQ dwellers vice others just makes things more complicated and really doesn't change much.  It makes much more sense to charge market rates for PMQs. give everybody the same PLD and then let members choose how they want to arrange things.

It's different in my eyes as the landlord is the same entity and not part of the economy, as in a private, for profit, landlord.  Those PMQ have been paid for time and time again. 

This is the computer age, I don't see how with a few key strokes it is so hard to add or delete one from the PDL roll.  They already do it if you are posted into the area and live outside of the boundries for entitlement.  It would level the playing field for those who live in the Q's regardless of where they are located.  If they want to get the PLD or more PLD then they can go outside with the rest of us.  I'm not saying chagre SFA for the Q's, but you don't need to be gouging either, I used the term a "reasonable" rate. 

It's not like it's being done in other areas or at least was.  In my old trade for instance, those who were posted to the Cdn Embassy in London were provided housing and were paying the PMQ rate for Ottawa regardless of the "going rate" on the street.  A MCpl I worked for lived in a 1.5+ million pound home and paid what he would have in Ottawa as a MCpl in the Q's.  That's fair as it didn't put him at a disadvantage to his peers in Canada. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

To counter your statement, if members don't want to live in PMQs and pay the posted rent, then they always have the option to move out and live on the economy.

Not everyone has the same 'options' because not everyone makes the same pay every 2 weeks.  I find those of you in the higher income bracket tend to forget that. 

No one should gain an advantage, unavailable to others, simply because his name came to the top of the list.

How about when a member is posted from one province where taxes aren't high, to say, Greenwood.  Standard pay group, so no Spec Pay, AIRCRA, or PLD but are still paying the same COL and taxes as someone in the Halifax PLDA and can't get into a PMQ.  Is that not being put 'at a disadvantage'?  Meanwhile, Capt Bloggins, who is a pilot, and in a MSC situation with a ACSO spouse who is a Capt also, they get a PMQ.

Please;  this 'disadvantage' argument is weak and selective.  Some people can afford to buy, some can't, some don't want to because they see the way military people are getting fuckin' raped when they have to sell and take a BIG hit.  Remember the headlines?  Our own government, which gives us no choice but to move, is putting people in situations where they are taking losses on their homes when they are POSTED WITH NO CHOICE.

Disadvantage?  I think the only 'disadvantage' is coming from our employer.  Those of you advocating to get rid of yet another benefit that helps CAF members should have your head shaken for you.  If Pte Bloggins can get an 'advantage' over me, after we've already made him pay for rations while he is on training, even thought he has a mortgage and family left at home, I say give 'er.

The same goes for OCdt, 2Lt Smithers, who also could be in the same situation.  If we prioritized WHO gets into the Qs, and did it RIGHT...there would be no one 'getting an advantage'.  It would be part of the leadership function of looking after our juniors.  Whats the rationale now?  "First come first serve".  Groovy.  In theory, a MSC who are both Majors with 1 kid could get a PMQ over a young family, with 1 child, a stay at home mom, and a young Pte being the only source of income.

Any who thinks that is fair and not 'an advantage' might want to consider their idea of 'leadership' and 'looking after the welfare of subordinations'.  Those perky little duties laid out in QR & O, Vol I...that are slowly becoming a thing of the past.  :2c:

Bottom line; the 'fair market value' of a PMQ built in the 50s is NOT the same as the rates for homes and apartments build in the 90s and above.  Slice it, dice it anyway you want.  PMQs should be based on the actual value of the property and factor in that it was already damn well paid for before most of the current CAF mbr's were likely born.

 

[blacktriangle]

EITS, pretty much agree with everything you say there especially the tax factor, and the fact that most PMQs are 50+ years old.

Speaking of not fair - things like IR discriminate against single members. Let's say I were to get posted into the NCR from somewhere like Kingston or Trenton. I have to worry about selling or renting out my home, or face the challenge of paying for both my mortgage and a rental at destination. Or I can quit, and leave a career I've spent the better part of a decade working on. Those are pretty much my options as far as I know.

My married friend in the same situation gets put up in a nice condo downtown, while still holding onto his home (which may appreciate in that time) and his wife gets to keep her high paying civilian career.

Sounds like I'd be at a disadvantage in this case, no? So clearly the system is not built to be fair. I certainly haven't heard many advocating for single home owners - so if I choose a PMQ at my next posting, I won't feel too guilty about any slight "advantage" it gives me. It's not like you are building equity in the Q's...

 

[Pusser]

Not everyone has the same 'options' because not everyone makes the same pay every 2 weeks.  I find those of you in the higher income bracket tend to forget that. 

How about when a member is posted from one province where taxes aren't high, to say, Greenwood.  Standard pay group, no aircrew so no Spec Pay, AIRCRA, or PLD but are still paying the same COL and taxes as someone in the Halifax PLDA and can't get into a PMQ.  Is that not being put 'at a disadvantage'?  Meanwhile, Capt Bloggins, who is a pilot, and in a MSC situation with a ACSO spouse who is a Capt also, they get a PMQ.

I've forgotten nothing.  My pay may be higher now, but it was once much lower and I too have struggled, but frankly, that's irrelevant.

Your statement above actually supports what I've been saying all along.  The two captain MSC should NOT have an advantage over any others and so yes, they should be paying market rates for their PMQ.  Everyone should.  Not everyone in the CF lives in PMQs because there simply aren't enough.  If everyone could be guaranteed a PMQ, then there might be an argument to lower and equalize rents across the board and make it part of our pay and compensation package.  But there aren't enough, so to subsidize some members' living accommodations and not others is fundamentally unfair.

Taxes, local cost of living issues, local rents (including PMQ rents) are addressed by PLD.

Members should never count on environmental allowances as part of their regular income as they can be pulled at any time.  Budget accordingly.

Spec pay may be part of your salary, but it is still finite.  Budget accordingly.

This argument that PMQs have been paid for several times over is ridiculous.  By that token, any property developer who has paid off the mortgages on his buildings should allow people to live in them for free.  In our society, we pay for our accommodation.

Having said all of this, I think DND should get out of the housing business altogether (except in remote locations and for short-term single quarters).  Overall, it's a money loser and the CF does no one any favours by providing it.  Too many folks, even today, are retiring with nothing to show for years of paying rent.  Perhaps if they had been forced to live on the economy sooner, they would have built some equity.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I've forgotten nothing.  My pay may be higher now, but it was once much lower and I too have struggled, but frankly, that's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant if you decide to let it be and take your perspective as a 'businessman'.

Your statement above actually supports what I've been saying all along

Uhhhhhh...no.  I do not support anything you say about the PMQ issue.  You're trying to take your log of shit, paint it yellow, set it down next to my banana and convince people they are the same, and to take a bite.  No thanks. 

The two captain MSC should NOT have an advantage over any others who are subordinate in rank and pay and so yes, they should be paying market rates for their last on the list for a PMQ.  Everyone who is a NCM rank Sgt/PO2 and Capt's/Lt (N) and above  should be lower priority on the waiting list, extenuating circumstances being taken into consideration when needed.  Not everyone in the CF lives in PMQs because there simply aren't enough or people would rather take a chance on home ownership and getting a return on their money someday.  If everyone could be guaranteed a PMQ, then there might be an argument to lower and equalize rents across the board and make it part of our pay and compensation package.  But there aren't enough, so to subsidize some members' living accommodations and not others is fundamentally unfair but that has nothing to do with PMQs, because it isn't subsidizing anything.  If only we would only prioritize the way PMQs are occupied like we are a 'military' instead of the 'civilitary', (by ensuring we look after our Junior NCMs and Officers who might need the services of our PMQs early in their career more than those of use with decades of service...)  But, sadly the CAF has been heading more and more away from being a military and more like a business the past decade +.

There, FTFY.

Taxes, local cost of living issues, local rents (including PMQ rents) are addressed by PLD.

  OMG, I thought you were SERIOUS when I read that at first.  Great joke!  :rofl:

Halifax PLD, after taxes of almost 50%, barely makes up for the difference in income tax alone between NS and Ont.  PLD helps but it doesn't level the playing field.  BTDT.

This argument that PMQs have been paid for several times over is ridiculous.  By that token, any property developer who has paid off the mortgages on his buildings should allow people to live in them for free.  In our society, we pay for our accommodation.

BULLSHIT!  What IS ridiculous, is you referring to DND housing as a "property developer".  STOP STOP STOP comparing military shit to fuckin' civilian shit.  Its 'business, civie world' mentalities like YOURS that is turning the military into the civilitary. full of goddamn "mah-vilians"; people who are not really military, but not civilians either but some weird half-half who is military when its convenient, or civilian when its convenient. 

Apparantly, in 'our' society, Canadian Armed Forces members who are also tax payers, pay for shit like parking lots and rental homes 400 fuckin times over.  : : : : : : :  Fuck me senseless.  And all the mah-vilians in the CAF of today do this  :nod: and little by little, more of the 'little things' that were a benefit for decades get taken away.  But meh..it only has the potential to affect the most junior members the most adversely...so no need to fret. 

Having said all of this, I think DND should get out of the housing business altogether (except in remote locations and for short-term single quarters).  Overall, it's a money loser and the CF does no one any favours by providing it.

There's that business man, mah-vilian talk bullhshit again.  :facepalm:  I know more than a few people who had 'a home of their own' starting off in the Q patch.  At one time, because of a short term posting, I lived in the Qs as a kid while our home was rented.  That was almost 40 years ago...it sure helped my family back then, and it is helping others TODAY.

Too many folks, even today, are retiring with nothing to show for years of paying rent.  Perhaps if they had been forced to live on the economy sooner, they would have built some equity.

Is that anyone's business other than theirs?  The Adult Day Care stuff isn't required, adults can make their own decisions on renting, buying, whatever. 

Sorry if that is harsh or blunt, but your kind who have dranketh the Magic Kool-Aid and just keep saying 'hell yah!' to cuts of services and any and all things that even have a HINT of 'benefit' to CAF members need to get out of the NCR, the HQs and mingle with the peasants more often.  It's easy to forget the realities of the single income family, living off of Pte's pay.  If we stop caring about the Pte's and 2Lts and their best interest, we are losing it and we've already lost it enough.

Oh, quick question.  How much money did the new government just hand off to other countries..how many billions?  If we can hand cash off like we're growin' it on fuckin' trees in this country, we can manage to keep some PMQs habitable and available for our military members who have signed up to serve Canada, whenever Canada calls.  The military is not a 'for profit business', the people who work for us are not 'our employess'.

They are our SUBORDINATES, and we are supposed to give a fuck about their well-being.  If you don't believe that anymore, its time to move on, and take the step from mah-vilian to civilian.  I don't want my tax dollars to pay armed forces members for 'running a business'.  I want that $ to pay armed forces members to run a military.

If some of my tax dollars are used to ensure PMQs are available for military members who are posted against their wishes, or for new members who are trying to start a family like my Dad did back in the 50s and 60s [before he could afford a home of his own], then so be it.  I'd rather see my taxes used for the benefit of Canadians then it being spread all over the world like we shit $100 bills in this country.

Hell, I'll donate my GCCWC annual donation to it;  add PMQ Fund to the donation paperwork and I'll double my annual donation.

 

[Furniture]

I've forgotten nothing.  My pay may be higher now, but it was once much lower and I too have struggled, but frankly, that's irrelevant.

Every time I hear someone of a senior rank make a comment like that I cringe. It's easy to forget what making $30K was like when the last time you made less than $100K was a decade ago... Sure things don't have to be easy, but advocating for making things harder on Jr members is not on. Want good people, treat them well and fairly.

Taxes, local cost of living issues, local rents (including PMQ rents) are addressed by PLD.

I find the Navy really has a skewed idea about the fairness and effectiveness of PLD. I suppose that is to be expected when the two operational bases just happen to be in high PLD areas and that is all most sailors know apart from Ottawa. PLD is a joke in its current form, and needs a serious overall before it will be anything nearing proper compensation for any of the above differences in postings.

I'll just echo EITS's sentiments that too much emphasis has been placed on making the CAF more of a business like, profit/loss driven organization. We are losing sight of the objective of taking the best care of our people that we can.

 

[RCPalmer]

Wow.  I think some perspective is required here.

I agree that the "taking care of the troops" imperative of leaders has slipped in recent years, but that is more about leader's diverted time and attention than money. 

The benefit package delivered by the CAF is better today than it has ever been.  Salaries and allowances in particular have grown significantly in the last 20 years. If you discussed the matter with anyone who served in the 60's and 70's, it would be clear to you that the lifestyle of the average CAF member today has improved considerably.

The CAF entry level pay and benefits packages are perfectly reasonable, and if you are a single guy you can live pretty well on them in most jurisdictions if you make smart choices, living on the economy when it suits, and in the Single Quarters when it doesn't.  The reality is that almost everyone who starts a family on a single income in an entry level position will struggle.  That reality is not unique to the CAF, and it is not up to the CAF to "fix" that.  This is the career trajectory that the vast majority of Canadians have to deal with. 

 

[DonaldMcL]

Wow.  I think some perspective is required here.

I agree that the "taking care of the troops" imperative of leaders has slipped in recent years, but that is more about leader's diverted time and attention than money. 

The benefit package delivered by the CAF is better today than it has ever been.  Salaries and allowances in particular have grown significantly in the last 20 years. If you discussed the matter with anyone who served in the 60's and 70's, it would be clear to you that the lifestyle of the average CAF member today has improved considerably.

The CAF entry level pay and benefits packages are perfectly reasonable, and if you are a single guy you can live pretty well on them in most jurisdictions if you make smart choices, living on the economy when it suits, and in the Single Quarters when it doesn't.  The reality is that almost everyone who starts a family on a single income in an entry level position will struggle.  That reality is not unique to the CAF, and it is not up to the CAF to "fix" that.  This is the career trajectory that the vast majority of Canadians have to deal with.

Sorry, it's not the 60s and 70s.

 

[PuckChaser]

 

[MJP]

Sorry, it's not the 60s and 70s.

That is the point of thier whole  post.

 

[c_canuk]

I just want the "CF Members have to pay market rates for everything" argument thrown out since we are not paid market rates.

It would be nice if PLD was fixed as well.

As for we have better benefits now than any other point, BULLSHIT!

it's only recently that troops have to pay rats even through they are maintaining a home while on course, it is only now that Separation Allowance has been removed from IR, and it is only now that "Double Dipping" has been stopped.

Those are massive reductions to compensation.

1. if a new Pte coming in has to pay rats and quarters while they are maintaining a home, and you don't see a problem with that you are what is wrong with the CF. I would suggest it's time for you to get out.

2. Yes Sep Allowance for IR was way to much, but to take it away completely is BS.

If you can't sell your home you really have no choice but to go on IR. IRP will only extend benefits to maintain 2 households at the same time for 6 months, they you're on your own jack. On top of that, banks will no longer only charge interest on a mortgage if you are in that situation. So good luck getting a second home mortgage, and good luck finding something other than a card board box to move into in your new location.

So yes technically it's your own decision to not move into a homeless shelter at the other end until your previous home sells.

So IR is a must for some, it is a horrible pill to swallow that your wife is 14 hour drive away, ready to move but your house won't sell. You don't have enough fat in your budget for a second mortgage payment or rent and technically it was "your choice".

So no relief for the extra expenses of maintaining 2 grocery budgets, 2 sets of utilities etc.

I get it folks had it too jammy and something had to give, but I'm sure there was a happy middle ground somewhere.

3. Double dipping doesn't make sense to me. If I retire and get a job as a CS-2 I don't get accused of double dipping, so why is a class b position considered the same? The only rational I heard for that is a great many class b positions were manufactured specifically for a person. Seems simple to solve to me. Each CO has to justify all current class b positions in their AOR annually, persons who release cannot take a class b for 2 years, and persons cannot take a class b from their previous unit of employment for 5 years.

Willing to bet a lot of reasons we're having trouble with the recruiting system today is a lot of talent walked rather than get their pension screwed with.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Oowwie,  prepare for heavy rolls to port and starboard as I'm sure they'll be coming from some quarters.    op:

 

[McG]

I see lots of posts on this site that lament the “PC crowd” tactic of making certain topics off-limits by questioning the ethics of any persons who do not support their position.  I am sorry to see that not everybody is above using such tactics for their own gain here.  Now that we have called into question the moral competence to lead of any person who does not agree with one particular crowd and brought out the popcorn smilie, it is clearly time to put this thread to rest for a while.

If you want to continue to participate in this thread productively, you can ask a moderator to open it not before Sunday.  If you cannot continue without dragging the discussion into mudslinging, then do not bother coming back when (if) the discussion resumes.

Cheers,
The staff.