US Army officer won’t accept Obama as chief

[Redeye]

With a couple of potential caveats depending on when you and they were born and your marital status at the time, your children are in fact citizens of the United Kingdom, and just need to register as such.  The way UK nationality laws work, though, their children could not lay claim to the citizenship automatically though (unless certain conditions are met involving your children living in the UK or completing "Crown Service" - I'm not sure if serving in the CF would apply in that case, never asked. (Edited to add: No, it doesn't count)

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/othernationality/Britishcitizenship/bornoverseas/

What does the security clearance issue matter, incidentally.  Presidents do not hold security clearances as I understand it, don't require them, being the Chief Executive and all.

Got a reference?

I am English by birth. My three children, who were all born here in Canada, however, are not British citizens simply because I retained that citizenship.

And what effect does Obama's father's citizenship have in this matter? Dual citizens in the US cannot hold security clearances (the subject of another thread here).

Between you and the US Lieutenant-Colonel who is the subject of this thread, I'd pick his and his legal advisers' knowledge of applicable US law over yours.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Got a reference?

This might cover it: http://www.american-citizenship.org/

A person may become a United States citizen by birth or through naturalization. Generally, if you are born in the United States or born to U.S. citizens, you are born a U.S. citizen, unless you are born to a foreign diplomat. You are also considered a U.S. citizen at birth if you were born in Puerto Rico, Guam, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Your birth certificate will be your proof of your U.S. citizenship.

If you were born abroad to parents who are both an American citizen and at least one of them have lived in the United States some times in his/her life. If you are born abroad, your birth is registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, and that record will be proof of your citizenship. If you want your citizenship to be recognized, you may also obtain an American passport. You may also obtain additional proof of your citizenship by filling out Form N-600 Application for Certificate of Citizenship, with USCIS and obtain a Certificate of Citizenship. To request a Form N-600, you need to call the USCIS Forms Line at 1-800-8703676 or download the document online.

If you are born abroad to one United States citizen and one foreign citizen, you may be considered a U.S. citizen if you meet the following requirements:

    * One of your parents was a U.S. citizen when you were born.
    * The parent who is a U.S. citizen has lived at least five years in the U.S. before you were born.
    * The parent who is a U.S. citizen must have lived in the U.S. for at least two years of these five years after his/her fourteenth birthday.

If you are a U.S. citizen by birth, you may be eligible to become a citizen through naturalization. People who are eighteen years old or older need to file a Form N-400, Application for Naturalization to become naturalized.

 

[Nemo888]

(from the US Constitution 1787)

The LCol is still a retard.

I would have thought after 3 years of this BS someone would have READ THE FRICKIN LAW! His birth certificate is irrelevant morons. This is a perfect example of a straw man argument.  Can't people focus on his real flaws instead of this?

 

[theSeaDog]

Got a reference?

I am English by birth. My three children, who were all born here in Canada, however, are not British citizens simply because I retained that citizenship.

if you were born outside the United Kingdom or qualifying territory and one of your parents was a British citizen otherwise than by descent, you are a British citizen by descent

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/othernationality/Britishcitizenship/bornoverseas/

Why look at that... they are

 

[George Wallace]

Not necessarily.  Birth in any given country does not necessarily confer citizenship - in fact if I remember right, the majority do not automatically confer citizenship by virtue of being born there, Canada and the USA are notable exceptions.

Being born to an American citizen parent, anywhere in the world, renders one a natural born citizen of the United States of America.

If 9D and I chose to breed, any of our kids would have that status automatically at birth, even being born in Canada.

You may want to revisit this.  I have a brother who was born in France when my father was posted there, and he (my brother) and many other dependent children born of CF members overseas have faced rather serious problems with Canadian Citizenship.  We even have a topic somewhere here on that matter.

 

[The Bread Guy]

On "born outside the U.S." status, it doesn't look automatic:

.... Biological or adopted children who regularly reside outside of the United States may qualify for naturalization under section 322 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), as amended by the Child Citizenship Act (CCA). In general, to be eligible for citizenship under section 322 of the INA, a child must meet the following requirements:

    * At least one parent is a U.S. citizen or, if deceased, the parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of death.
    * The U.S. citizen parent or his or her U.S. citizen parent has (or at the time of death had) been physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for at least 5 years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of 14.
    * The child is under the age of 18 years.
    * The child is residing outside of the United States in the legal and physical custody of the U.S. citizen parent (or, if the citizen parent is deceased, an individual who does not object to the application).
    * The child is temporarily present in the United States after having entered lawfully and is maintaining lawful status in the United States.
    * An adopted child may be eligible for naturalization under section 322 of the INA if the child satisfies the requirements applicable to adopted children under sections 101(b)(1)(E), (F) or (G) of the INA. See the “INA” link to the right. ....

An application on behalf of an eligible child must be filed on Form N-600K, Application for Citizenship and Issuance of Certificate under section 322 of the INA. See the “Citizenship and Naturalization Based Forms” link to the right.  The Form N-600K must be filed on behalf of the child by the U.S. citizen parent.  If the U.S. citizen parent of the child has died, a U.S. citizen grandparent or U.S. citizen legal guardian may apply on behalf of the child within 5 years of the parent's death.

To obtain citizenship under section 322 of the INA, the application must be filed, approved, and the child must take the oath of allegiance, if required to do so, before the child reaches age 18 ....

 

[Blackadder1916]

Being born to an American citizen parent, anywhere in the world, renders one a natural born citizen of the United States of America.

By American law, since his mother was an American Citizen, he is a natural born citizen of the United States. Birthers, always too lazy to actually read the statutes. Prove his mom was not American, then you have something.

Not quite.  Being born to an American citizen does not automatically confere citizenship on the offspring;  the American parent may have to meet certain residency requirements in order for his/her sperm/egg to become sacred.  Otherwise, I would be eligible to run for President.  Maybe you should read the statutes as well.

Article 2, Section 1 of the US Constitution states the qualifications for President:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

The original constitution does not define "natural born citizen" but there have been numerous court challenges dealing with who is or is not automatically a United States citizen at birth.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."  Even if this is not specific enough the Constitution provides the framework for law that fills in the gaps which is done by Title 8 of the U.S. Code.  Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

§ 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
  (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
  (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

I've highlighted the paragraphs that may (IMO) apply to the Obama argument.  However, a large part of the "birthers" argument (irrational IMO) is that "natural born" means born within the geographical boundaries of the United States (or one of its possessions and with the mistaken understanding that an overseas United States military facility is US territory - to accommodate McCain).  Some of the historical court arguments (and one notable 'dissenting' Supreme Court opinion - in 'Dred Scott') also defined "natural born" in that way.

You should note the use of the term "national" as separate from "citizen".  A "national" is a person who is considered under the legal protection of a country, while not necessarily a citizen. National status is generally conferred on persons who lived in places acquired by the U.S. before the date of acquisition. A person can be a national-at-birth under a similar set of rules for a natural-born citizen. U.S. nationals must go through the same processes as an immigrant to become a full citizen. U.S. nationals who become citizens are not considered natural-born.

 

[TheHead]

(from the US Constitution 1787)

The LCol is still a retard.

I would have thought after 3 years of this BS someone would have READ THE FRICKIN LAW! His birth certificate is irrelevant morons. This is a perfect example of a straw man argument.  Can't people focus on his real flaws instead of this?

Of course not.  Racists were mad that a black man is now the most powerful man in the world.

 

[LineDoggie]

Of course not.  Racists were mad that a black man is now the most powerful man in the world.

Really?  generalize much?

and the view that John MCCain was ineligible since he was born in Panama that was racist as well when the Dems put it forth??

This all started when Hillary Clintons Campaign staffer Phillip Berg Esq. filed suit

 

[a_majoor]

This all started when Hillary Clinton's Campaign staffer Phillip Berg Esq. filed suit

Democrat dirty tricks ooze out into the "real" world, with improbable results......op:

 

[vonGarvin]

The birth certificate has little if anything to do with the issue, but it's something to focus on....the 800 pound gorilla in this is race.....a lot of bigots don't want a black man in the office....uh....too late fellas.... :

His mother is white.  Does that make him white?  Or black because Dad was black?


(I could care less, but I find it rather insulting that people who claim that race means nothing will call him black.....He's a fucking human being.)

 

[vonGarvin]

I don't think anyone here will disagree with that assessment.

You thought wrong.  He (the LCol) may be mistaken, but I don't think he's a retard.  He believed that an order issued to him was not lawful, and said so.  Instead of running to Canada and claiming anything, he went to court, and lost, and is now suffering the consequences of his beliefs, right or wrong.  So, for one, I do not think that he is a retard, but rather more admirable than those who come to Canada claiming the moral high ground, but abandoning it.

 

[vonGarvin]

And to complicate matters, John McCain was not born in the United States. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone where his father was stationed in the USN.

Which is enough to consider John McCain an American by birth.  It complicates nothing.  It is similar to CF dependents born in Germany or France in the 1960s. 

 

[vonGarvin]

Of course not.  Racists were mad that a black man is now the most powerful man in the world.

...
Yes, they are all racists. 


And just as they are all racists, so too are you a stupid fucker.


(I am illustrating a point.  They are not all racists, ergo, you are not a stupid fucker)

 

[Old Sweat]

Which is enough to consider John McCain an American by birth.  It complicates nothing.  It is similar to CF dependents born in Germany or France in the 1960s.

Agreed. However it was raised early in the campaign in an attempt to discredit him. I am not sure if it was similar to CF dependents born in Germany or France, as the Canal Zone was considered sovereign US territory at the time.

 

[TheHead]

...
Yes, they are all racists. 


And just as they are all racists, so too are you a stupid ******.


(I am illustrating a point.  They are not all racists, ergo, you are not a stupid ******)

  You're right.  It's not fair to paint all the conspiracy theorist, anti-intellectual, mouther breathers who believe in shit like this, the 9/11 truth movement or  how Bush invaded Iraq for oil as racist. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Of course not.  Racists were mad that a black man is now the most powerful man in the world.

Yea, pretty much anyone who didn't want Obama as president is a defacto racist too.

 

[Redeye]

George - in the case of Canada you are correct under certain circumstances for a particular period (I don't remember the dates) when there was a "loophole", it has been closed since, and has been IIRC since the 1960s.

You may want to revisit this.  I have a brother who was born in France when my father was posted there, and he (my brother) and many other dependent children born of CF members overseas have faced rather serious problems with Canadian Citizenship.  We even have a topic somewhere here on that matter.

 

[Redeye]

The restrictions read rather like those of Britain's laws for citizens born overseas, instituting residency requirements so as to preclude generations of citizens with no actual connection to the country.  I had forgotten those caveats existed and shouldn't have as one of my friends just went through the process of getting her US citizenship documented.

In the case of President Obama, regardless of his birthplace were outside the USA, (which, let's be honest, is really not in dispute - but for argument's sake), he would be a citizen by virtue of suitability (d) since his mother was a citizen of the USA who resided there most of her life to that point.

Not quite.  Being born to an American citizen does not automatically confere citizenship on the offspring;  the American parent may have to meet certain residency requirements in order for his/her sperm/egg to become sacred.  Otherwise, I would be eligible to run for President.  Maybe you should read the statutes as well.

Article 2, Section 1 of the US Constitution states the qualifications for President:
The original constitution does not define "natural born citizen" but there have been numerous court challenges dealing with who is or is not automatically a United States citizen at birth.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."  Even if this is not specific enough the Constitution provides the framework for law that fills in the gaps which is done by Title 8 of the U.S. Code.  Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

I've highlighted the paragraphs that may (IMO) apply to the Obama argument.  However, a large part of the "birthers" argument (irrational IMO) is that "natural born" means born within the geographical boundaries of the United States (or one of its possessions and with the mistaken understanding that an overseas United States military facility is US territory - to accommodate McCain).  Some of the historical court arguments (and one notable 'dissenting' Supreme Court opinion - in 'Dred Scott') also defined "natural born" in that way.

You should note the use of the term "national" as separate from "citizen".  A "national" is a person who is considered under the legal protection of a country, while not necessarily a citizen. National status is generally conferred on persons who lived in places acquired by the U.S. before the date of acquisition. A person can be a national-at-birth under a similar set of rules for a natural-born citizen. U.S. nationals must go through the same processes as an immigrant to become a full citizen. U.S. nationals who become citizens are not considered natural-born.

 

[George Wallace]

George - in the case of Canada you are correct under certain circumstances for a particular period (I don't remember the dates) when there was a "loophole", it has been closed since, and has been IIRC since the 1960s.

Here is the topic in question: Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!