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US Economy

Redeye said:
Probably comes from an understanding that who sits in the White House has no control over the price of gasoline.

Except for appointing the head of  the EPA who can and does stop oil exploration, pipeline development and refinery contruction and sets the tone for policies related to use of hydrocarbon energy.

To say nothing of setting official policies on the exploration on Federal lands, green energy subsisidies, the use of biofuels and CAFE standards.

 
SeaKingTacco said:
Ok- I am going to type this slowly so you understand, Redeye.

It is physically impossible (as in the laws of physics do not allow for it, no matter what some people may wish) for solar/wind/everything else to replace oil and gas.

There is simply not enough energy density in those forms of energy and there is no way to reliably store what little power they do generate.  What is even worse, their presence actually destabilizes the power grid, as it is near impossible to match both phase and frequency of those thousands of widely fluctuating windmills and solar panels to the wider grid.  At best, they are niche players, best employed in remote locations that are disconnected from the wider grid.

The best  thing that we could do is invest heavily in nuclear ( perhaps thorium based, instead of uranium) to take care of electricity, while reserving carbon fuels for transport purposes.

You know, funny enough, no need to post like an a$$. Because I completely agree (and didn't think it needed to be spelled out). We also need to conserve petroleum supplies for petrochemicals and so on. Interesting thing about wind and solar, they're fueling investigation of storage technologies so that power generated when there is no demand for it can be stored in different ways. Some interesting concepts for this exist. That will allow them to contribute substantially to peak load demand, while sources like nuclear and hydroelectric generation provide the base load requirement wherever possible.

We can't simply stop using oil, and no one in their right mind has ever suggested that. What we can do is use it a lot more efficiently.
 
It's rather amazing that the political dimension of oil and other pricing needs to be debunked so often. How many times will you willfully ignore or pretend that the simple action of President George W Bush signing an executive order opening federal lands to oil exploration in 2008 caused the price of oil to crash, despite the fact that there was no time for any actual oil to have been brought into production during that time frame.

There were no other extenuating circumstances that cause the crash, simply the calculation by the commodities brokers and futures traders that a large amount of US crude oil was going to become available in the near to mid future.

Since the Obama administration took office, we have seen a complete reversal of opening lands for exploration, closing or blocking of alternative sources and even a high ranking cabinet officer saying it would be necessary to force gasoline prices to rise to European levels (which has almost been achieved in California, BTW), and markets have reacted accordingly.
 
Just some quick math to show how awful solar energy is.  I've converted a litre of gasoline into btu and then into electrical watts for comparison.  Assume you have one 100 watt solar panel and are receiving 15% efficiency over 24 hour period.  You'll receive 360 watts a day from the panel.  1 litre of gasoline has 8834 watts in it.  That solar panel has to run 24.5 days for my truck to travel 6 kilometres.  A 70 litre tank lasts me a week for travel.

Therefore 1 solar panel would need to operate 24 hours a day for 4.70 years, for myself to drive around for one week in my truck.
 
The biggest shock to the US economy, not to mention the collective US psyche, will come IF Barry Eichengreen, something of an expert on monetary policy, is right and, as explained in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Financial Times, "the dollar’s days as reserve currency are numbered:"

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/005370e2-1137-11e2-8d5f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz28kBveJwW
The dollar’s days as reserve currency are numbered

October 8, 2012

By Barry Eichengreen

As the International Monetary Fund and World Bank redouble their warnings on the prospects for global growth, central banks continue to flood the markets with liquidity. The US Federal Reserve began its third round of quantitative easing last month; the European Central Bank is offering unlimited purchases of bonds of troubled eurozone countries. The People’s Bank of China, responding to slowing growth, has cut interest rates repeatedly and trimmed reserve requirements.

It may seem a strange time to worry about a shortage of global liquidity. But precisely this risk looms and, if nothing is done, it will threaten 21st-century globalisation.

The global trading and financial systems require lubrication by an adequate supply of homogeneous assets that can be bought and sold at low cost and are expected to hold their value. For half a century, US Treasury bills and bonds played this role. Their unique combination of safety and liquidity has made them the dominant vehicle for bank funding globally: it explains why the bulk of foreign exchange reserves are held in dollar form, and why the role of dollar credit in financing and settling international trade far exceeds the US share of international merchandise transactions.

But as emerging markets continue to rise, the US will unavoidably account for a declining fraction of global gross domestic product, limiting its ability to supply safe and liquid assets on the scale required. The US Treasury’s capacity to stand behind its obligations is limited by the revenues it can raise, which depend, in any scenario, on the relative size of the US economy. With emerging markets’ growth outstripping that of the US, the increase in the capacity of the US Treasury to supply safe and liquid assets will inevitably lag behind the increase in global transactions.

For the US not to address its looming fiscal challenges would be more alarming still. America may not be at risk of default, because the Fed is there to backstop the market in Treasuries. But if the current situation persists, America’s sovereign obligations will not hold their value indefinitely. And if they fail to hold their value, they will not hold investors’ confidence. If they no longer offer the safety that investors have come to expect, they will not function as the stable collateral required by bank funding markets. They will not be regarded as an attractive form in which to hold international reserves. And they will not be seen as a convenient vehicle for merchandise transactions.

A serious shortage of international liquidity would spell the end of globalisation as we know it. International financial and merchandise transactions would become more expensive. Without an attractive means to hold the reserves they need to intervene in international markets, central banks and governments would be reluctant to give those markets free rein. Controls would become widespread.

The only other economies large enough to supply safe and liquid assets on a meaningful scale are the eurozone and China. Europe is currently in no position to do so. Eurozone bonds would have the requisite uniformity and liquidity but they remain a bridge too far.

China, however, has not yet succeeded in developing a liquid bond market. Beyond that, there is the fact that every reserve currency in history has been the currency of a political democracy. In a democracy, the executive is subject to checks and balances. This reassures investors, including foreign investors, that they are safe from expropriation. It is not yet clear whether China, as a one-party state, can finesse this problem.

If they are not to come from the US, European or Chinese governments, then where can an adequate supply of safe and liquid assets come from? Some observers point to the private sector. They suggest that international transactions can be financed and settled using high-grade corporate bills and bonds.

Corporate obligations, however, lack the uniformity of sovereign debt. To use them, those engaged in cross-border transactions would have to make expensive investments in information or, worse yet, rely on the rating agencies. Either way, the costs would be significant.

Others propose empowering the IMF to create international liquidity by authorising it to issue additional special drawing rights and, more importantly, requiring the Fed to accept them in return for dollar liquidity. This is a clever scheme, but Congress will never agree to it.

The only solution, then, is for the US, Europe and China to share the burden. They can do so by putting in place measures to enhance investor confidence in their sovereign issues. And in each case the solution is at least as much political as it is economic.

The writer is professor at the University of California, Berkeley. This article is a version of a paper published by the DWS Global Financial Institute

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2012. You may share using our article tools.


The US gains hugely by having its dollar as the global reserve currency. Ben Bernanke can print more and More and MORE without as much risk of devaluation (although there is some) as would be experienced by say, Germany or Japan were they to do the same.
 
The only way to stop the printing of money is to tie it to silver or gold,like the good old days.
 
No worries kiddies.

Obama is on the case and he is the smartest, bestest economics genius the world has ever known.  He's told us he got game, so of course we can just chill while he social justice spreads the wealth around and makes us all fair.

We can all rest easy knowing he has it all figured out and is looking after our best interests.

 
Thucydides said:
It's rather amazing that the political dimension of oil and other pricing needs to be debunked so often.

It seems that we are both amazed, but on opposite ends of the argument. And I refer you back to my post in the election thread:

http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/83554/post-1173805.html#msg1173805

But please explain to me how opening up drilling has anything more than at instantaneous short lived effect based on speculative movement in a volatile market when it takes several years to bring a well on line.

And what is with the rush to drain domestic oil reserves. The whole point of developing energy independence is to put the US into a more strategically desirable position when it comes to control of it's own economy, vis a vis the cost of energy. Unless you look at alternative energy systems, and develop said systems to become more efficient, all you will achieve is kicking the energy dependence can down the road. Once the domestic oil supplies have been exhausted, you are back to where things were in the 70's when OPEC gave the US economy a massive kick in the 'nads.
 
Thucydides said:
It's rather amazing that the political dimension of oil and other pricing needs to be debunked so often. How many times will you willfully ignore or pretend that the simple action of President George W Bush signing an executive order opening federal lands to oil exploration in 2008 caused the price of oil to crash, despite the fact that there was no time for any actual oil to have been brought into production during that time frame.

There were no other extenuating circumstances that cause the crash, simply the calculation by the commodities brokers and futures traders that a large amount of US crude oil was going to become available in the near to mid future.

Since the Obama administration took office, we have seen a complete reversal of opening lands for exploration, closing or blocking of alternative sources and even a high ranking cabinet officer saying it would be necessary to force gasoline prices to rise to European levels (which has almost been achieved in California, BTW), and markets have reacted accordingly.

Pretty simple. I read what people with knowledge in the field say. And none of them seem to find this line of reasoning to holds water. Literally no source I can find with any credibility on the issue whatsoever suggests that there was anything but a short term swing which ended up being relatively meaningless, and further, that there is fundamentally no reason to believe that American production will substantially alter global supply.
 
kevincanada said:
Just some quick math to show how awful solar energy is.  I've converted a litre of gasoline into btu and then into electrical watts for comparison.  Assume you have one 100 watt solar panel and are receiving 15% efficiency over 24 hour period.  You'll receive 360 watts a day from the panel.  1 litre of gasoline has 8834 watts in it.  That solar panel has to run 24.5 days for my truck to travel 6 kilometres.  A 70 litre tank lasts me a week for travel.

Therefore 1 solar panel would need to operate 24 hours a day for 4.70 years, for myself to drive around for one week in my truck.

I'd like to see you move your truck with a 100 Watt solar panel. That would be a feat.  :sarcasm:

There are a lot of questionable assumptions in the numbers you are putting out there, the biggest is assuming that there is a 100% efficiency in conversion of the fuel to direct motive power.

Not to mention that you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to electric versus gas powered vehicles. Also your units of measure are not compatible, one a measure of power (watts) and the other a measure of energy (BTU). Power is energy expended over time.

A better comparison would be to look at the consumption of electrical output or gasoline for equivalent sized motors / gas engines.
 
tomahawk6 said:
The only way to stop the printing of money is to tie it to silver or gold,like the good old days.

What good old days were those? The days of the gold standard weren't necessarily so great, yet I'm not surprised you don't know that. There's a reason that's virtually no economists consider such an idea to be anything other than completely, utterly insane. Arbitrarily tying an economy to a single commodity rarely does much good. The idea that would prevent inflation doesn't hold up to any serious scrutiny (inflation occurred when the gold standard existed, and hasn't occurred significantly in the early 1980s in North America or Western Europe for the most part). And let's not forget that the likelihood of it surviving any serious economic crisis is nearly zero, since historically the US abandoned it because of the constraints it created.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444914904577619383218788846.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19422104

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/



 
Pretty dismissive of data that puts the lie to your convoluted logic. The US has the resources IF tapped that would end our reliance on Middle East oil. This in turn would keep us from getting embroiled in the politics of the region. People have been saying for decades that oil is a finite resource,but somehow we have not come close to pumping all the available oil,which might just be a renewable resource courtesy of mother nature. We have recoverable coal reserves of 275b tons which could fuel our energy needs for 250 years at current consumption rates. At some point in the future I hope we can move to hydrogen to fuel vehicles,power plants and everything else.We arent there yet.

Coal facts.
http://www.clean-energy.us/facts/coal.htm

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Steve-Forbes-Gold-Standard/2011/05/11/id/395949?s=al&promo_code=C3FC-1

The United States will likely go back on the gold standard within five years in order to correct fiscal and monetary imbalances, says former GOP presidential candidate and Forbes Magazine Publisher Steve Forbes.

The gold standard, under which the dollar is pegged to gold instead of other currencies as it is today, was abandoned by President Richard Nixon in 1971.

"What seems astonishing today could become conventional wisdom in a short period of time," says Forbes, according to Human Events, a conservative media website.

A return to the gold standard would stabilize the dollar by discouraging hefty fiscal spending as well as preventing the Federal Reserve from printing excess money.

"People know that something is wrong with the dollar," Forbes says, adding "you cannot trash your money without repercussions.”

The dollar would not only be stronger today if the gold standard were in place, it would be less volatile.

Currency volatility has helped open the doors for speculators to invest in commodities as a hedge against swinging currency values, which has helped stoke inflationary concerns.

Harder to Borrow

Under a gold standard, it is "much harder" for governments to borrow excessively like they are doing today, Forbes says.

The housing bubble, partly the product of loose monetary policy, would never have been so severe under a gold standard.

"When it comes to exchange rates and monetary policy, people often don’t grasp" what is at stake for the economy, Forbes says.

By restoring the gold standard, the country would move away from "less responsible policies" and toward a stronger dollar and a stronger America, Forbes adds.

"If the dollar was as good as gold, other countries would want to buy it."

Talk of returning the country to the gold standard has risen in recent months.

Sean Fieler and Jeffrey Bell, respectively the chairman and policy director of the American Principles Project, say resurrecting the gold standard can tame the Federal Reserve's money-printing campaign.

"Members of Congress seeking to restrict the Fed's power need to consider what oppositional force is truly capable of hemming it in," the two write in recent The Wall Street Journal editorial.

"One answer is a revived gold standard, which would once again obligate the Fed to redeem dollars for gold at a fixed rate."

With the dollar weakening and with the Fed in no hurry to change its policies, gold has been soaring.

Precious metals often do when paper currencies soften.

Gold recently hit a record $1,577.57 an ounce, which is six times higher than the precious metal’s low in August 1999, according to Bloomberg.

Gold's rally did take a breather recently, falling 1.6 percent after the Wall Street Journal reported that Soros Fund Management sold precious-metal assets.

Still, others say the metal has a ways to go before truly peaking.

"I'm bullish on gold despite its current levels," says Hal Lehr, Deutsche Bank’s managing director for cross-commodity trading, according to Bloomberg.

"It could reach $2,000 an ounce in the next eight months.
 
DO NOT let this go down the path of the 2012 election thread, or start using it as a surrogate for that thread or a debate on energy, etc.

It will not be given the chances and benefit of the doubt that the other one did.

The rest of the rules still apply. Ad hominem and personal attacks are out. Back up your claims with verifyable AND legitimate sources. Politicians, no matter what you think, will be portrayed civilly.

STAY ON TOPIC!

Posts judged out of bounds will be removed without warning or explanation.

Warnings will be issued. This is important, as some involved in these 'discussions' have no warnings left. The EXIT is the next step.

This post serves as your notice.


Milnet.ca Staff
 
Too funny Hale. Heaven forbid a return to Victorian England. Pretty dismal place for everyone but the rich. Or New York City of the same time period.
 
Tomahawk6, there's simply no credible source I can find that suggests that to be true. EIA, DOE, etc all acknowledge that it isn't possible. DOE's numbers suggest that any impact on prices would be negligible, and by the time they are realized, US resources would be pretty close to exhausted. And that doesn't tackle the other issue I mentioned earlier, that nothing will stop producers and refiners expiring their product if they can get more money that way. There often seems to be a subtext that domestic production will necessarily go to domestic markets but there is no rational basis for this assumption.

Posting an opinion piece by Steve Forbes doesn't sway me at all. I don't see any real evidence that any mainstream candidate would seriously pursue a gold standard, and the suggestion of a committee (in which the idea would simply die) is a concession to attract voters from the Ron Paul camp. From the perspective of both mainstream economists, and even average Americans, it neither fixes any problems, nor offers any attractive benefits worth the impact it would have. See where he talks about the housing bubble? Why would that come to and end? Because consumer credit in general (which allows Americans and others to a great extent the lifestyle they desire) would come to a crashing, abrupt halt potentially. There are other ways to address the issue. As the Atlantic article above highlights in its two charts, the big pitch about inflation control via a gold standard does not actually have any basis in history.

Trying to turn energy policy into soundbites doesn't work. Ultimately the US economy will benefit from establishing more energy independence, but that is a lot more complicated that "drill baby drill". It will necessarily involved development of new sources of energy, and better uses of existing ones - especially those which are scarce. To me that ties well to the Nouriel Roubini piece Mr. Campbell posted in the Global Economy thread - that governments bound to election cycles have no particular incentive to look at long term policy. Roubini notes, however, that governments with no such worries (China, for example) are generally so risk averse that they don't look at bold changes too fondly either.

The solution seems, to me at least, dependent on good policy frameworks that manage existing resources and encourage initiative in developing new energy sources. In broader terms for the US economy, given that the heydays of a robust manufacturing economy are over and not coming back, this could be the direction the US has no option on. It's often bemoaned that China and India are churning out engineers and the like at a rapidly increasing rate, and maintain a manufacturing base at far lower cost. That positions them well to be able to overtake American innovation if no effort is made to keep that competitive advantage.

Problem is developing policies that don't simply create red tape that chokes off the economy, but that don't simply become a "cost of doing business" while not accomplishing the actual goal. Fuel economy standards come to mind, where as I recall companies whose product offerings who not hit targeted average fuel economy simply pay fines, which are just to them a cost of selling the product. I don't have an easy answer for that though.
 
recceguy said:
DO NOT let this go down the path of the 2012 election thread, or start using it as a surrogate for that thread or a debate on energy, etc.


How could you discuss or debate aspects of the US economy without bringing up the election, politics, or energy policies? They all have an effect on the economy in one way or another?

That being said, I do agree with your warning about this spiraling in the same way as the election thread. And I fear that your warning will not be enough. I hope we're both wrong, but as some of my opponents have pointed out in the past, hope is no substitute for policy and action.
 
The Presidents plan to manage our resources is to not drill and to tax/regulate coal to the point where they have to shut down. Instead we are spending billions on green energy that is not viable. We are seeing food prices spike because of ethanol. Ethanol is poor substitute for gasoline and it increases the cost of living. We dont need to go hungry when we have the resources to produce gasoline and plenty of corn for food. The President is responsible for the state of the economy. Harry Truman had a placard on his desk "The Buck Stops Here". The man in charge gets the glory when things go well and when they dont he gets the blame. Its the way it should be.
 
I think we should reopen the election thread with strict priviso's....there's too much juicy stuff happening and it fun to watch the  :deadhorse:    ;D
 
tomahawk6 said:
The Presidents plan to manage our resources is to not drill and to tax/regulate coal to the point where they have to shut down. Instead we are spending billions on green energy that is not viable. We are seeing food prices spike because of ethanol. Ethanol is poor substitute for gasoline and it increases the cost of living. We dont need to go hungry when we have the resources to produce gasoline and plenty of corn for food. The President is responsible for the state of the economy. Harry Truman had a placard on his desk "The Buck Stops Here". The man in charge gets the glory when things go well and when they dont he gets the blame. Its the way it should be.

You can't lay the blame for the Ethanol subsidy at the feet of the current administration. Lay it where it belongs, at the feet of the corrupt political system where lobbyists for the ethanol industry pour $millions into election coffers of a congress that is afraid to eliminate corn subsidies. I agree whole heartedly with you that there is no more stupid idea than shifting food resources to produce a fuel substitute which only results in a rise in the price of the fuel.

As for the coal industry, government policies are not to blame for the down turn in the industry. It is the drop in natural gas prices that has made coal uneconomical. Power plants are switching to cheaper and cleaner gas fired systems. Blame the loss of coal jobs on improvements in drilling technology.

But in the long term, we need to find alternate sources of fuel and energy if security is to be achieved. Simply using up the reserves that are there now while we can get at them as I said before only kicks the problem down the road. By developing policies that increase the choice of energy systems available while at the same time secure the existing domestic sources only makes sound judgement, as decreased demand on fossil fuels will help to secure future needs with domestic sources.
 
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