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US Troops in Iraq Arming Themselves With AK-47‘s

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babicma

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BAQOUBA, Iraq (AP) - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger.
Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete.
U.S. troops in Iraq may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they‘re certainly getting their hands on the country‘s stock of Kalashnikovs - and, they say, they need them.

The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles.

A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank‘s firepower for protection.

But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.

"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.

"Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there‘s no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged."

In Humvees, on tanks - but never openly on base - U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world.

The AK is favored by many of the world‘s fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently.

Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use - and they like what they see.

Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq‘s dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots.

"The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee.

Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said.

Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 - a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s - is better for long distance, precision shooting.

But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters.

Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass.

Bailey, who couldn‘t see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple.

"I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said.

Some soldiers also say it‘s easier to get ammo for the AK - they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon.

"It‘s plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16.

Young doesn‘t carry an AK but has fired one. He‘s considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn‘t yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he‘s out of his tank.

And the AK‘s durability has impressed him.

"They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said.
 
U.K. Troop‘s did the same in Gulf 1 when they found out how crappy the SA 80 was they even brought out the SLR (F.N) and the old bren gun because they could take the dust and shite better than than the SA 80
 
use what you‘ve got to work with. Cant see what the problem with it would be..
 
Aks eh! The best ones I have used have been East German ones, the 7.62 x 39mm MPiKMS, a side folder. The Yugo ones are nice quality too.

NO the ammo is NOT interchangeable with the NATO 7.62 x 51mm rd or vice versa. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of BS. take it from someone who has taught lessons on it with cutaway chambers on weapons used to ‘confirm‘. It SIMPLY does NOT interchange!


I have destroyed countless AKs and RPK‘s and RPKS74‘s and other stuff from Somalia, and the middle east. Sea containersd full of it, with some being saved for heritage and the AWM in Canberra.

I have also come accross ones contracted in 5.56 x 45mm M193 (Chi Com Type 56-1‘s Nigerian contract), and of course the AK74 and AKS74 in 5.54 x 39mm too.

Different variants of such as Hungarian, Russian, Pollish, Egyptian, Chinese, North Korean, Romanian, Bulgarian, and others. even Czech VZ58, which is NOT an AK, but resembles one. Anyways, millions and millions of them worldwide.

Would I use a captured AK? Well first off, what about booby traps, and then the weapon itself? A small hole drilled through the chamber area creates a real danger for the shooter (this has been encountered by US in Iraq already).

I am sure their armourers have had a squizz at them.

we all know weapons have signatures, and if you are shooting one on auto, friendlies may take you for EN, and drop some mortars on you and your mates.

And what about ammo? I would not be sniffing around a wooden crate of it either! Loose rds? Humm. In the Viet Nam days the US used to booby trap rds, either losoe or in boxes. The rds were spiked with C4! Ouch.

AK 7.62 x 39mm ammo is packed the same in a Com Bloc standard. two metal spam type tins in a wooden crate, which is long and narrow. The crates are stackable. I would not want to be poking in one, fearing a nasty suprise, which may set the whole place off in a flash, and your thoughts being the same as the mayor of Hiroshima (WTF was that?).

I would only use a rifle and ammo, if they were inspected by qualified armourers and trained ammo techs. However in the heat of battle, I would take the chance.

As for how are they to use?

Well, try using the safety with gloves, then try using it with the stock folded. First click down is Auto, the 2nd R. No hold open after the last shot is fired too.

It is robust, and a trained shooter can get a pie plate sized group at 100 metres. (I did anyways)


Cheers,

Wes
 
"They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it"

Yes because an AK47 is so difficult to use. IF a soldier, a COMBAT soldier, needs to demnostrate an ability to use a weapon like an AK 47 then he didn‘t do enough work up training. This should be stuff taught in basic.


Tanks have a lot of fire power and jets can do pin point bombing but in the end it always ends up comming down to a foot soldier on the ground with a rifle.
 
Prior to some work up trg for troops going off to pre-UNPROFOR trg in 1992, before leaving at our level, all troops were familiar with ‘hands on‘ the AK, RPK, SKS, Tokarev and Makarov pistols.

Here in Australia, many AKs are in the system. A few months back whilst driving thru the trg areas of Holsworthy, we came accross a large (PL size) EN party of soldiers in brown uniforms, all with Chi-Com Type 56‘s AK‘s(fixed butt)with folding spike bayonets.

They were acting EN for the SF, who were exercising inpreparation for the World Football Champoinships in Sydney.

Overall the AK is agood rifle, but like any rilfe has its pros and cons.

Cheers,

Wes
 
http://community.webshots.com/photo/397463456/397525249VJiyCA He he  ;D
 
Wesley H. Allen said:
A small hole drilled through the chamber area creates a real danger for the shooter (this has been encountered by US in Iraq already).

What happens if its fired and theres been a hole drilled in the chamber?
 
Everything stated above considered, it's pretty hard to tell whose at fault, or who was there. Hmmmm..........nothing but 7.62x39 casings found at the scene. Best reason I know for letting anyone use them. Why give the enemy the advantage?
 
Some troops have done this, but I dont think its widespread. The M4 is very much in demand but can be in short supply, but there should be plenty of M16's available.
 
Most of the Ak's I encountered in Iraq could hardly fire a 30-shot clip on semi without jamming... ( auto worked most of the time )... and I wouldn't trust them for ranges over 200 meters! But if you cleaned up a "new" ( Iraqi military vers. ) it served well as a "close quarter back up weapon" ( spray and prey :threat: )...

But for distances over 200 meters neither the AK47 nor the AK74 can match the C7/M16.
In a little test we made ( shoot a wall and see how deep in it goes ;D ). The C7 won and the C8 and the AK47 was equal...

And for some reason most Iraqis cuts of the rifle butt, making the weapon almost completely useless for distances over 20 meter... :blotto:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/397463456/397507811hMigAw I'm still carrying my C7

 
more likely the ammo would be spiked / booby trapped, much simpler then drilling a hole, etc. 
US military used to sneak into ammo dumps in Veitnam, Republic of, and scatter around a few spiked rounds, you'd never tell them apart, Chi-com markings and all. I think you guys can figure what a lil C-4 in a rifle cartidge will do... 

maybe I'll dig out the photos a Marine took of cases and cases of 7.62.39mm..... you can guess Irainan / Syrian markings...


Using AK's is nothing new, the US Goverment used to and may still are making 7.62x39mm ammo, Lake City used to make it by the ton, of course unmarked cases...

if it kills the enemy, use it, if the Ammo comes from Iran, all the more sweetier.

 
babicma said:
...
"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. ..." said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.
...

Going over-seas without sufficient personal weapons for your troops? ["One man, one kit"?]
 
This is modern adaptation on a new field of battle. Why waste time arguing with the supply chain when you got millions of Kalishnikov's lieing around, with ammo a plenty. As for ranged precision shooting this is not the focus of close quarters engagements. Your not trying to peg an enemy in his eye from 800 meters are you? If you are I would hope your Squad knows where you are because your not riding with them down a crowded street. The AK and its 7.62 rounds at close range will chew threw a wall! (It is a heavier round after all.) So I do not see the reasoning behind oh this is a horrible gun or it's not our army issue! If it saved your ass you'd probably be kissing the barrel after it cooled down. Now at range compared to a C7/M16 ofcourse the AK isn't going to perform as well going into a wall when the effective range of a C7/M16 is greater due to the fact that their barrel is longer.

But enough of my babbling, I am sure you would adapt to the situation and start polishing up an old AK if you were short supplied armermants in Iraq, either that or you could pray to God that your the best darn shot with that 9mm. Aside from that for an armour crew or even takin a ride in your Humvee, the AK will do fine enough.
 
The use of captured weapons has been a constant in all wars - even by us - using captured German 88's in WW2.

Also, I would rather have a slightly less accurate 7.62 round going deown range than a very accurate 5.56. Only hits count, and a bigger round counts more!
 
I would rather have a slightly less accurate 7.62 round going down range than a very accurate 5.56. Only hits count, and a bigger round counts more
Not that I would like to get hit by an AK, but the velocity of the projectile also has a saying...

At a distance with the 5.56 you will need to put 2 or more rounds into a "standard Iraqi" to make sure he doesn't "respawn" and starts shooting again...

You'll need the same with the AK47/74 and if your weapon isn't as acurate as the enemy's He will hit You first!

In most cases I have seen with people being killed by AK47 ( tribal fights, Insurgency vs Iraqi Police/Facility Protection ) people had been shot at close range. People hit once from a distance survived in most cases. ( The two following guys was hit form about 200 - 250 meters doing a tribal fight )

This guy was hit in the head:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/397463456/397522891MGcimV

And this guy in the leg:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/397463456/397523609cwLJvk

So for me the AK is nothing more than an powerfull SMG ( But that doesn't meen it's useless )

 
Pfc_Norup said:
So for me the AK is nothing more than an powerfull SMG ( But that doesn't meen it's useless )

How true PFC Norup!

The 7.62 x 39mm is infact an intermediate cartridge, filling the gap between a SMG (say 9mm or 7.62 x 25mm) and a standard rifle cartridge (say 7.62mm NATO and 7.62 x 54mm R). The whole Russian thought behind the 'assault rifle' (with help from captured German engineers)was to have a shorter, lighter weapon with SMG fire power with better range and punch.

The AKs I have seen captured by our forces in Iraq and A-Stan have been in very bad condition, overall had the crap beaten out of them (with a few exceptions). Original AK-47s and AKMs. Models of Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, Pollish, East German, Chi-Com, and Yugoslavian types, and many more, plus bastardised ones made from a combination of these variants. In some ways, pretty scary looking kit.

As for using the AK and its variants (as there is every variant imaginable in   Iraq) to be used within an operational unit in an operational environment, well for me, the weapons would have to be examined by qualified armourers to ensure they are fully functionable, matching (and tight), not tampered with or damaged (holes in chamber, etc), that they are intact (complete components i.e. extractor present, sights complete etc), and complete, and of course test fired to ensure relaibility and accuracy. One can get 200mm groups or less, with ease at 100 metres with a standard AK from the prone unsupported.

To answer a previous post, a live rd being fired with a drilled chamber or barrel will cause gasses at high pressure to exit the hole causing potential catastrophic failure of the eqpt and/or serious damage/injury to the firer or personnel standing near by. So, whe in doubt, DON'T shoot it.

To even pick up enemy rifles lying about in itself is life threatening as there are many simple booby traps to end your life and those around you. And as for ammo, that is even scarier. Ammo from Russia, Yugoslavia, China, along with a host of other nations has been found in Iraq, along with domestically produced ammo. So to be safe even it has to be questioned. Ammo containers too have been found 'boobied'.

As for usiing both AKs and ammo without auth/or inspection would only be done in a life/death situation only.   Thats how I see it, and thats my prospective, that being from an Armourer, and from a person with many years (since 1982) behind the AK and its variants.


Regards,

Wes
 
Pfc_Norup said:
Not that I would like to get hit by an AK, but the velocity of the projectile also has a saying...

At a distance with the 5.56 you will need to put 2 or more rounds into a "standard Iraqi" to make sure he doesn't "respawn" and starts shooting again...

While I agree with Wesley's staements as to the oft-dubious reliability of the AK and ammo, the superior characteristics of the 5.56 round are a non - issue if none are available.

The weapon I have will always be preferable to the one I want - but don't have.

Having said that, I have seen the effects of  7.62 x 54 on deer, and I would'nt sell it short so quickly - it killed just as well as the .303 next to it.
 
GO!!! said:
Having said that, I have seen the effects of   7.62 x 54 on deer, and I would'nt sell it short so quickly - it killed just as well as the .303 next to it.

I think they were referring to the 7.62 x 39mm.
 
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