US Troops in Iraq Arming Themselves With AK-47‘s

[1feral1]

.303 British   is 7.7 x56mm R, or in a sense almost the same to 7.62 x 54mm R.

For those who wonder about the 7.62 x 54mm R (R designated for having a rimmed base) Russian cartridge is what the Dragonov Sniper system uses (although it can be found in 7.92 x 57mm also on, say one of the Yugoslavian versions for example) <AKA 8mm Mauser, the mainstay of WW2 Germany and others>). Along with the Dragonov, this workhorse cartridge is also common for the PK family of GPMGs, Maxims of Soviet service, and the Mosin Nagant family of Com-Bloc rifles and carbines. The 7.62 x 54mm R has been around for a very long time indeed. Confused   :-\ ? The US .30 rifle cartridge is 7.62 x 63mm, and all the main cartridges of WW1 to WW2 used by the Allies and Germany were very similar in calibre and cartridge case length, but NONE interchanged.

I am gonna get a headache from all this techo talk   ;D

Cheers,

Wes

 

[paracowboy]

Having said that, I have seen the effects of   7.62 x 54 on deer, and I would'nt sell it short so quickly - it killed just as well as the .303 next to it.

yes, but the AK doesn't fire the 7.62 x 54.

 

[geo]

Vehicle crews are (or should be) equipped with the C8/M4 carbine.
If the US has been issuing it's drivers and crewmen the C7/M16 (or less) then... Yeah - I can understand why some fellas have put up enough of an argument for the AKs to be used.

I would further imagine that the unit CO would have gathered a large number of AKs and had qualified / experienced personnel choose the best available - to make up the shortage in "short" weapons that can be swung around inside the unit vehicles.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

In my case ( the Danish Army ) we didn't have any shotages in weapons. But we did confiscate a lot of AK's and instead of delivering them all for destruction, we sometimes kept them, so we had somekind of backup/toy.. But there is no doubt that I would rather use a H&K G3, M1 Garant or even a SA80 before using a AK47 as my primary weapon.

But on a lonely night in the desert  ;D  or in close quarter combat it better than a 9mm sidearm!

 

[GO!!!]

To clarify;

Two men are hunting, one with a .303, the other with a SKS/Dragunov/Soviet Rifle thing, and both had successful, accurate kills with their respective weapons.

I was under the impression that Dragunov and AK ammo were interchangeable.  :-[

 

[1feral1]

SKS and variants is 7.62 x 39mm
VZ57 7.62 x 45mm Czech, and later 7.62 x 39mm
AK-47 and AKM and variants 7.62 x 39mm
AK74 and variants 5.45 x 39mm
Valmet M62 series 7.62 x 39mm
R4, Galil, and Valmet M76 series 5.56 x 45 mm (Galil also in 7.62mm NATO)
Note: Chi-Com Type 56 and Type 56-1 rifles were also made in 5.56 x 45mm for contract nations (i.e. Nigeria)

Dragonovs have been made in export calibres to suit clients as required. Notabily the Yugoslavian version.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[geo]

Pte Norup,
can relate to you / others being inclined to set asside some hardware for..... err.... training aids & the like.
With respect to pistols.......... lanyard on em so that Junior officers don't lose em.... don't have much use for the darn things - so yeah - short weapon like an AK w/folding stock makes lots of sense (though I am not a real fan of the SA80).
In an urban - built up areas, not sure that using the ennemy's own weapons is a good thing - if troops in support are around the corner from you & they hear AKs chattering away - more than likely to call in a fire mission / flanking attack on your position....

 

[1feral1]

True geo, even small arms have weapons signatures. We all can tell a .50 from a MAG 58, and a MAG 58 from a Minimi. I had an uncle with XXX Corps at Arnhem, and he said you could tell the 'chug' from a BREN to the 'tearing cloth' of an MG42 quite easily from a distance, and later on in the war, they were always told not to mess with captured equipment because of this. Sadly he has passed away in 1997, and in his latter years he spoke quite vividly of his wartime experiences to those he felt he could confide in. Several of his 'warprizes' were on display at a museum in Winnipeg for years.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[geo]

Yup, have had my own conversations with members who served in WWII
the solid crack of the 88, even from the inside of the Sherman was unmistakable
the ripping sound of the M42 - yup
the slow steady beat of the 50?... oh yeah... remember the grizzled old Sgt who gave me my gunners course.

my own personal favorite is the 50cal spotting rifle & 106mm RR firing off in quick succession.... Oooh yeah baby - most unmistakable.

If you're out to "hide" or blend in with the "locals" the making regular use of the AK is an acceptable habbit - but if you're out there with other friendlies.... firing away with the AK might not be too healthy.

 

[Big Red]

Re: 'Friendlies'...there are plenty using Soviet weaponry. With the exception of some of the more elite door kicker units, all of the Iraqi forces are using AK variants.

Drawbacks I noted after carrying an AK for nearly 6 months:

-poor sites - fixed with aimpoint on gastube rail
-large magazines
-heavy magazines
-silouette - you may *look* like a badguy when you are changing your tire on the side of the road during hours of darkness

Advantages:

-zero stoppages
-heavier bullet
-availability of parts/spare mags
-cost $ ie. Free
-mag commonality between LN forces
-variety of models to choose from

I prefer a 5.56 weapon as I can carry 2x the ammunition in mags for the same weight and closer to my body.

My ideal AK for vehicle ops is a side folder with both the barrel and gas system shortened by the armourer. Ideally Aimpoint or Eotech up front on a chopped rail. Magazines of the plastic variety.

While some guys hold onto their AKs I've seen that when given the option most will choose to carry a 5.56 system or something else from NATO ie. G3 or FN.

 

[1feral1]

Hey Big Red, Aimpoints etc, you must be contracting?

We have AKs in our system, purchased new and are of Romanian manufacture. AKM, AKMS (side folder East German style) in 7.62mm, and AKSU, AK74, AKS74 (side folder also) in 5.45mm. These even have NSNs all '66' country coded of course ;D

One thing noted about the AK family in regards to the sights. The sight picture is the same on the SKS, and the 'Poison Mosin' (M-1891/30, M-1938 and M-1944 rifles and carbines). Its a traditional Russian sight picture which has been around for almost 100 years. Elevation adjustments are the same too, so its all common and user firendly.

I have never had any problems with sighting, and zeroing etc on the AK family, but I have never used anything but the 'issue' iron sights provided on these rifles. No fancy optics of any nature or RAS stuff

Disadvantges on the AK I have found are as fol:

- No hold-open (although some mags have a special follower which works as a hold open when the mag is empty, this might have been an Israeli mod, not from a Com-Bloc country).

- The change lever (safey catch) is difficult to operate with gloves on, and even worse with the stock folded (Russian AKMS and Chi-Com Type 56-1 style stocks). A distinct   AK 'clack' when moving the change lever.

- Windage on the front sight required a special tool in the butt trap cleaning kit, which is often missing

- The bolt tends to fall out of the Op Rod (on 7.62 versions) when this assy is removed from the rifle, and this was improved on the AK74 models

- The first notch when moving the change lever from 'safe' on the AK is Automatic, the second, repetition as we are used to the opposite, and this is simply a trg/familiarity issue, not really a disadvantage.

I have no problem with the robust heavier mags, but the the steel mags are common to the 7.62 versions with some orange bakelite and black 'waffle' plastic mags available. The 5.45's do not have metal mags.

Like any combat rifle, it must be kept clean and servicable, and maintained by the user and the Unit. The AK has a good history for being robust. Its easliy disassembled, and almost soldier proof, but like any piece of kit, it does break. It too, is only as good as it's operator, both in preventive maintenance, and actual use through good training, and of course, lots of shooting.

As I mentioned earlier, WRT AK battelfield pickups etc, I have encountered have had a range of AK-47 and AKM parts switched around (AKM op rods in AK47s <not much of a differreance, AK47s are chrome, AKMs are phosphated>, different country's components swapped around etc, mismatched op rod and bolts, mismatched gas tubes (yes these are all serialised as many parts are hand fitted nd NOT interchangeable) if not stamped, the parts are acid etched or engraved by hand. Very few were matching, and as for user maintenance, well that was ad, Rusted, split timber, worn finshes, pitted bores, damaged rear sights, missing front sight posts, muzzle compensators (AKM) and end caps missing (AK47) damaged muzzle threads, cleaning rods missing, rear sling swivels missing, etc. I could go on and on.

Cold XXXX's

Wes

 

[Big Red]

Yup, contracting.

"The change lever (safey catch) is difficult to operate with gloves on, and even worse with the stock folded (Russian AKMS and Chi-Com Type 56-1 style stocks). A distinct  AK 'clack' when moving the change lever."

Fortunately the Tabuk models have an additional tab on the fire selector that is both closer to your fingers and sticks out further. I could change settings down (but not up) easily with my index finger.

When stuck with an underfolder I found it easy to just file away about a 1.5" wide by 1/4" groove where the selector passes the stock. That way if there is pressure on the right side of the stock you can still change off SAFE.