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Vimy

Here is one more thing my buddy pointed out to me the other day.

If you go to Vimy, even if you know nothing about military history, you can still kinda imagine what happened.
It was a ridge, we took the ridge.

WIth Amiens the objective was to push as far as possibile, it is not as dramatic to think about or view for the general public.

and of course 2nd Ypres was on the defensive.

I still think Lens is the most overlooked battle though.  Brillent planning and making the German tactical doc work againt themselves.
Plus Currie stood up to the higherups and insisted that his plan (sieze the hill above town) was used instead of the (UK?) plan (Sieze and town and hold it while the Germans control both hills around the town).
 
You have a point FL - it's easier for humans to allow their imagination to work if there's something with definable and tangible borders to work with - and a battle at a prominent or distinctive landmark or feature fits the bill, especially if efforts have been made to preserve it, and mark it for continued distinction.

Canadians fought many battles in France and on through Holland in WWII, but Dieppe and Juno beach stick out - they are distinctive battles, with a distinct terrain or region. You can wade out a bit into the water and look at the shore and use your imagination. Efforts have been made to preserve the memories attached to these places.

When I went to Vimy, I was so impressed with the setup - and it helped me understand a bit more of my heritage. I lay down on the ground, and tried so hard to picture what it would have looked like for our forefathers.

Some of our former battlefields are built over now, or grown over and few know of their existence or visit any more - once they aren't a site of pilgrimages or tours, then they can fade from the collective memory.

I wouldn't argue either that there's a bit of a 'selection bias' at work. Not a defined and deliberate attempt to denigrate other efforts. but, sometimes a culture becomes fixated on specific events of the past. And, historians and other pundits will often write books to appeal to the audience, and as such, will focus on that which the general public will buy.

Vimy is so ingrained now into our Canadian military and political identity. Was it greater or lesser than other campaigns? I won't get into that here. But, because it is the site of the memorial, because it has been preserved so well, and because it became so much a part of our history and identity with so many books and documentaries made, it has and probably always will, overshadow most of the other battles.
 
Because it was the day the Canadian Army showed the world who had the finest, toughest, most dedicated troops!

:threat: :cdn:
 
DNA solves mystery of Vimy Ridge soldier
KATHERINE HARDING From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Article Link

EDMONTON — Doreen Bargholz's family rarely talked about her uncle, Private Herbert Peterson.

His parents and five brothers were heartbroken when the 22-year-old soldier from rural Alberta never returned from the muddy French battlefields of the First World War. The military told them he had gone missing, and was presumed dead.

"There was a big photo of him hanging in my grandparents' living room. That's how I knew him," the 78-year-old Ms. Bargholz said in an interview.

But thanks to hard work by a team of Canadian scientists, genealogists and Defence Department historians and officials, the private's body was recovered in 2003 and identified earlier this year.
More on link
 
At ease Pte Peterson, your work is done

At the going down of the sun,
and in the morn,
we will remember them!

Chimo!
 
Another mystery solved after almost 90 years. A family who only knew their relative on a faded photo, now has the questions answered, and he can now be buried in a marked grave.

I do beleive Canada has about 11,000 ' Defence personnel' with no known grave from the Great War.


Regards from Kuwait,

Wes
 
http://jam.canoe.ca/Television/2007/03/22/3806335-cp.html

"Vimy Ridge: Heaven to Hell" airs Monday night on History Television at 8 p.m. ET.

Should be a good watch :)

 
Just a thought question

How many unidentified burials are there and how does it to compare to the number with no known grave?
How many are left to find?
 
I have no idea about the numbers.
But from the Canadian graveyards I have seen in France there are ALOT of graves that say something like "a soldier of the great war" or "A Canadian Soldier of the 1939-45 War".
As well who knows how much is buried in each grave.
 
The Commwealth War Graves Commission says the Numbers are as follows;

WW1 Identified Burials and Cremations - 45,528
        Commemorated on Memorials to the Missing - 19,514 (minus 1 now)

WW2 Identified Burials and Cremations - 37,305
        Commemorated on Memorials to the Missing - 8,011

Source: Commwealth War Graves Commission Annual Report 1986-87
The numbers may have changed since then.
 
FascistLibertarian said:
I have no idea about the numbers.
But from the Canadian graveyards I have seen in France there are ALOT of graves that say something like "a soldier of the great war" or "A Canadian Soldier of the 1939-45 War".
As well who knows how much is buried in each grave.

In some cases there is nothing in the grave. Though beginning with the First World War British and then Commonwealth philosophy changed in that every attempt was made to provide each departed soldier with his own place of permanent rest. Inspite of this noble effort there are problems ranging from the results of a direct hit by an artillery shell in which case there are physically no remains to the remains being submerged in the mud and hence being unlocated. Further reasoning is the use of mass graves to get the bodies out of the way to enhance a newly one position, or the entanglement of several various bodies due to the continuing cycle of attack, counter attack. This was often occurring circumstance in modern warfare and a prime example is the research of Russian author Nina Tumarkin who "with her own hands, unearthed the bones of some of the estimated two to three million Soviet soldiers killed in World War II but never properly buried."

Additonal problems are exemplified by "the burials of our fallen soldiers differed according to the native customs in a given locality. When an airplane crashed near the villages of natives, the bodies were always accorded proper burial. In some cases this meant cremation,in others simple interment."(Snow) Other problems are illuminated by  in that during the Korean War "combat troops could hardly be spared to dig graves, and it was almost impossible to obtain civilian labor, due to the abandonment of towns and villages by fleeing refugees anxious to escape from the battle area."(Cook) Other problems identified by Cook are as follows "because of the exigencies of battle  remains were hastily interred in foxholes, shell holes, or any area of soft earth which permitted a quick burial. These isolated graves were not always marked, and, even in cases where crude markers were erected, many were lost through the action of the elements or destroyed in battle. Still other markers were removed by natives or the enemy."  While  Pavel L. Ivanov states "however historically, until recently, the success in identifying war dead was not the question of the highest priority for the country, and no special resources and assets have been devoted to this endeavor."


Source:

Cook, John C. LTC  Q.M.C. "Graves Registration in the Korean Conflict" The Quartermaster Review March-April 1953

Ivanov, Pavel L. "Identification of Human Decomposed Remains Using the STR Systems: Effect on Typing Results'. Center for Forensic Medical Expertize, Ministry of Health; Moscow, Russia.

SNOW,CHARLES E. "THE IDENTIFICATION OF THE UNKNOWN WAR DEAD", American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 6, Issue 3 (p 323-328

Tumarkin, Nina. The Living & the Dead: The Rise and Fall of the Cult of World War II in Russia  . 1994:Basic Books

edit: grammer clean up
 
so what speech would you vote nomber 1

if you cant decide you can vote for all 3.




The Queen's Speech

Ladies and gentleman, in any national story there are moments and places, sometimes far from home, which in retrospect can be seen as fixed points about which the course of history turns; moments which distinguish that nation forever. Those who seek the foundations of Canada's distinction would do well to begin here at Vimy.

Until this day 90 years ago, Vimy Ridge had been impregnable; a lesson learned at terrible cost to the armies of France and Britain. For the Allies, this ridge had become a symbol of futility and despair. It was against this forbidding challenge that the four divisions of the Canadian Corps were brought together as a single army for the first time.

In a matter of a few hours, on this cold and inclement Easter Monday morning, the Canadians became masters of the ridge and accomplished what many had thought impossible. Their victory was the fruit not only of an ingenious battle plan drawn up by Canadian commanders, but especially of courage and determination with which Canadian soldiers carried out their mission.

No fewer than four Canadians were awarded the Victoria Cross for conspicuous bravery during the battle, though it could easily be said that every soldier in the field demonstrated conspicuous bravery, such was the verve of the Canadian attack. It was a stunning victory. More, in capturing this formidable objective, the Canadian Corps transformed Vimy Ridge from a symbol of despair into a source of inspiration. After two-and-a-half years of deadly stalemate, it now seemed possible that the Allies would prevail and peace might one day be restored.

Here on this hallowed ground, where so much has been sacrificed, we're commemorating their courage and achievement. Their victory gave more than hope, it allowed Canada, which deserved it so much, to take its place on the world stage as a proud, sovereign nation, strong and free. Canada's commemorative monument at Vimy shows Canada's great strength and its commitment to freedom and also shows the deep solidarity that links Canada and France.

And lastly, it certainly shows the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the courageous Canadians that inspired a young nation to become a great nation.

To their eternal remembrance, to those who have recently lost their lives in Afghanistan, to Canada, and to all who would serve the cause of freedom, I rededicate this magnificently restored memorial.







The Prime Minister Of Canada Stephen Harper' Speech


Your Majesty, Mr. Prime Minister of the Republic of France, distinguished guests, veterans, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you all for honouring us with your presence today.


We Canadians here today are a long way from home but there may be no place on Earth that makes us feel more Canadian, because we sense all around us the presence of our ancestors.


If we close our eyes we can see them, dressed in their olive khaki uniforms, rifles slung over their shoulders, the distinct wide-brimmed helmet perched on their heads.


They are emerging from their filthy trenches, trudging through the boot-sucking mud, passing the skeletons of trees and the shell holes of blood, surrounded by the horrible noises of war.


Overhead, the Canadian Red Ensign is fluttering through the smoke.


One hundred thousand brave Canadians fought here 90 years ago today. Three thousand five hundred and ninety-eight died.


Every nation has a creation story to tell.


The First World War and the battle of Vimy Ridge are central to the story of our country.


The names of all the great battles are well known to Canadians and Newfoundlanders, but we know the name of Vimy best of all, because it was here for the first time that our entire army fought together on the battlefield and the result was a spectacular victory, a stunning breakthrough that helped turn the war in the allies favour.


Often, the importance of historical events is only understood with the benefit of hindsight but at Vimy everybody immediately realized the enormity of the achievement.


Brig-Gen. Alexander Ross famously said that when he looked out across the battlefield he saw, and I quote, "Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific on parade,'' and that he felt he was witnessing the birth of a nation.


The year after the war ended the brilliant Canadian commander at Vimy, Sir Arthur Currie, put it another way in a speech at Toronto's Empire Club.


Canada was a nation of immigrants before 1914, he said. Now these men who have come back are your very own.


Nothing tells our story of the First World War as eloquently or as powerfully as this extraordinary monument. It reminds us of the enormity of their sacrifice and the enormity of our duty to follow their example and to love our country and defend its freedom for ever. The veterans of Vimy passed their stories to their children, who passed it to theirs, who passed it to us, who are passing it to our children.


Thousands of them are with us today. And some of them will return here someday with their own children, and their grandchildren.


Because nothing tells our story of the First World War as eloquently or as powerfully as Walter Allward's extraordinary monument to the 11, 285 Canadians who fell in France with no known resting place.


Allward said he was inspired by a dream. He saw thousands of Canadians fighting and dying in the vast battlefield. Then, through an avenue of giant poplars, a mighty army came marching to their rescue. They were the dead, Allward said. They rose in masses and entered to fight and aid the living: I have tried to show this in this monument to Canada's fallen, what we owed them, and will owe them forever.


It is sometimes said that the dead speak to the living. So at this special place at this special time on this special day, let us together listen to the final prayer of those whose sacrifice we are honouring. We may hear them say softly: I love my family, I love my comrades, I love my country and I will defend their freedom to the end









Speech by the Prime Minister of France M. Dominique de Villepin.

"Your Majesty,

Prime Minister of Canada,

Ministers,

Members of Parliament and elected representatives,

Ambassadors,

Monsieur le Préfet,

General Officers,

Ladies and gentlemen,

We are gathered today at the monument to the Canadian soldiers killed at the battle of Vimy Ridge.

90 years ago, on Easter Monday 1917, an allied offensive attacked an enemy fortress here, a fortress defended by reinforced concrete, barbed wire, machine-gun nests, mines and trenches, and which had already cost the lives of more than 150,000 Entente troops.

[In English:] 90 years ago this Easter Monday, after a week of shelling the enemy lines, in driving sleet, 35,000 Canadian soldiers launched their assault. Beneath a deluge of fire, they advanced towards the German defences. By midnight on Tuesday, Vimy Ridge had fallen. 3,600 Canadian troops were dead and 11,000 wounded. By their courage and their spirit of sacrifice, those who fought at Vimy struck one of the first of the blows that opened the way to victory a year and a half later.

Altogether 66,000 Canadians, all volunteers, many of them so young, coming from all over Canada, were to give their lives for this war fought so far from home. They did so out of solidarity with Great Britain and with France, their brothers. That is why on 26 July 1936, King Edward VIII, your uncle, Ma’am, inaugurated this monument of commemoration and gratitude.

Your nation, Mr Prime Minister, displayed this same solidarity again at Dieppe on 19 August 1942, and on D-Day, when Canadian troops were in the front line on Juno Beach, paving the way for the Liberation of Europe.

[In French:] The heros of Vimy died to defend values which have constantly united us and brought us together: values of peace, freedom, tolerance and respect for man. Our democracies must go on defending these values throughout the world. This is why we are together involved in safeguarding peace in Bosnia, in the Democratic Republic of Congo, in Haiti and Afghanistan. It’s why I want, in France’s name, to pay a solemn tribute to the Canadian soldiers fallen on French soil. In my thoughts too are the six Canadian soldiers killed yesterday in the line of duty in Afghanistan.

To our British allies, I want to express our unfailing gratitude.

On this Artois soil which has suffered so much, and where our allies were our liberators, France says thank you to Canada. [In English:] Thank you Canada.

[In French:] To the Great War veterans, I want to express the whole nation’s heartfelt admiration and deep gratitude.

France honours the Canadian soldiers! France honours Canada! Long live the Republic! Long live France!"

 
The Prime Minister Of Canada Stephen Harper's speech;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6373IRqSeU

Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7vCQ7VMuvA
 
Well, it's the anniversary of Vimy Ridge today.

8 yrs off 100 yrs.

Here is a 2nd cousin of mine KIA on the Ridge 92 yrs ago today.

He was from down east originally, and ended up with the 38th Ottawa Battalion.

Richard Marlin cut down at just 20 yrs of age.

He's in a CWGC communal grave, resting with his mates just 100's of metres from the Ridge itself, and buried near where he and his mates fell.

RIP mate.

OWDU

EDIT: Anyone who wants to add to this, feel free.
 
Here is the info on 2 brothers killed this day in 1917.

The Long, Long Trail
9 April 1917
814814 Olivier Chenier, 27, and 814813 Wilfred Chenier, 28, both of the Royal Canadian Regiment, Canadian Expeditionary Force, who died during the attack on Vimy Ridge. Sons of Janvier Chenier, of Buckingham, Quebec, they are buried in adjacent graves in Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez.

Another pair of brothers from the same day.

Also 9 April 1917
797131 Arthur West, 28, and 797116Bill West, 26, both of the 14th Battalion Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regiment), Canadian Expeditionary Force, who died during the attack on Vimy Ridge. Sons of Abraham and Emiline West of Norfolk, Ontario, they are buried in adjacent graves in Nine Elms Cemetery, Thelus. A third brother, 797113 Louis West, 21, was also killed at Vimy Ridge on 7 September 7 1917. He is buried in Lapugnoy Military Cemetery.
 
A friend of mine did their master's thesis on the stability of the tunnels at Vimy Ridge.


http://hdl.handle.net/1974/979

Some interesting pictures of the tunnels (and a lot of geology).
 
Vimy Ridge letter shows war did not crush human spirit
article link
A Canadian soldier's letter from Vimy Ridge is being hailed by a European scholar as a "fantastic find" that provides evidence of a previously unknown "Christmas Truce" — the impromptu, Dec. 25 laying down of arms by German and Allied soldiers during the First World War.

University of Aberdeen historian Thomas Weber, whose own great-grandfather fought with the German army during the 1914-18 conflict, said the letter home from a Toronto soldier details an exchange of gifts between enemy soldiers just months before the horrific battle remembered as Canada's coming of age.

The letter is all the more poignant because the young Ontario soldier who wrote it — 23-year-old Pte. Ronald MacKinnon — was killed in the Battle of Vimy Ridge in April 1917, a bloody but successful Canadian charge up a strategic height of land in the French countryside.

A few months earlier, MacKinnon had written to his sister in Toronto about a remarkable event on Dec. 25, 1916, when German and Canadian soldiers reached across the battle lines to share Christmas greetings and trade presents.

"Here we are again as the song says," MacKinnon wrote. "I had quite a good Xmas considering I was in the front line. Xmas eve was pretty stiff, sentry-go up to the hips in mud of course. . . . We had a truce on Xmas Day and our German friends were quite friendly. They came over to see us and we traded bully beef for cigars."

The passage ends with MacKinnon noting that, "Xmas was 'tray bon,' which means very good."

The best known Christmas truce from the First World War took place in 1914, when German and Allied soldiers are said to have sung Christmas carols together and otherwise fraternized in a brief moment of peace amid the killing fields of the Western Front.

But historians have long debated the precise details of that event, and Weber told Postmedia News that most scholars believe such episodes did not recur as the gruesome war dragged on and feelings of hatred and revenge came to fill the minds of men on both sides.

"But these kinds of sentiments were being expressed throughout the war," said Weber, whose recently published book, Hitler's First War, details the First World War experiences of the central figure of the Second World War.

Notably, says Weber, Adolf Hitler's own regiment in the First World War was among those known to have participated in momentary acts of kinship with enemy soldiers. He takes aim in his book at the widely held notion that Hitler was profoundly shaped by a deep hatred and bitterness for the enemy that was common among German soldiers from the First World War.

While Hitler is known to have been personally hostile to momentary peacemaking amid the war, there was a definite "gulf" between his views and those of many Germans on the front lines.

MacKinnon's letter and similar evidence of fraternizing with foes "really puts to rest the long dominant view that the majority of combatants during the Great War were driven by a brutalizing and ever faster spinning cycle of violence," Weber argues in a summary of his research.


"I'm not saying that brutalization did not occur at all," he added, "but more commonly what happened was that soldiers in the heat of battle fought ferociously but, after the battle and after the adrenalin had gone, remorse tended to set in, and there are many incidents recorded where soldiers tried to help injured soldiers from the other side."

It was "because of this kind of sentiment that continued Christmas truces were possible," Weber states.

The historian said he was alerted to the MacKinnon letter following a lecture he gave this fall in Toronto. An audience member approached him afterwards and said his family had direct evidence of the sometimes friendly relations exhibited between enemies during the First World War.

"The letter was a fantastic find and clearly demonstrates that there was an attempt to downplay these small-scale Christmas truces when they happened," says Weber, noting that official military records make little or no mention of such events — largely because they could be interpreted by army commanders as a failure to maintain discipline and a fighting frame of mind among front-line soldiers.

"Officers had to report to higher chain of command so had an interest in downplaying events in the official version in their war diaries."

He said in an interview that British and Canadian soldiers appear to be most commonly involved in Christmas truces, which were occurring despite the "great amount of risk for the first soldier coming out" of the trenches to initiate contact with the enemy.

"You never quite know how widespread the phenomenon will be," he said. "Will the enemy start singing or get out their guns?"

He noted that the "existing popular version" of why Christmas truces occurred suggests "what was ultimately important was whether Allied troops were facing 'good Germans' like Bavarians or 'bad' Germans like Prussians and Saxons. But actually, it seems it doesn't matter whether the Germans were northern, southern, Catholic or Protestant — the influential factor was whether they were facing British — including Canadian and Australian units — rather than French troops."

Other historians have cautioned against "sentimentalizing" life on First World War battle fronts. The award-winning Canadian chronicler of the war, Canadian War Museum historian Tim Cook, has documented the illegal executions of enemy prisoners and other acts of barbarism during the conflict, and once wrote that such "cruel" episodes typically garner less attention that idealized stories of spontaneous truces featuring "cigarette-swapping, football-kicking soldiers at Christmas."

Weber says there's no doubt the brutalizing effects of the First World War led to the "dehumanizing" of enemy combatants in many cases, but that the Christmas truces highlight how a "kind of humanity did survive."

Text of letter written on Dec. 30, 1916 to Jeanie Gregson in Toronto.
Dearest Sister,

Here we are again as the song says. I had quite a good Xmas considering I was in the front line. Xmas eve was pretty stiff, sentry-go up to the hips in mud of course. I had long rubber boots or waders. We had a truce on Xmas Day and our German friends were quite friendly. They came over to see us and we traded bully beef for cigars. Xmas was "tray bon" which means very good.

Do you ever write to Aunt Minnie in Cleveland? If you do, see if she can give you the address of any of our mother's relations in England. Aunt Nellie was saying that some of them lived in Grangemouth, which is not far from Fauldhouse. If you could get me their address I would be very pleased to see them when I am in Blighty again.

I am at present in an army school 50 miles behind the line and am likely to be here for a month or so. My address will be the same, No. 3 Coy., PPCLI. I left the trenches on Xmas night. The trenches we are holding at present are very good and things are very quiet.

I have had no Xmas mail yet but I hope to get it all soon. How is Neil getting on in the city? I'll write to him some of these days. Remember me to all my many friends at home.

Your loving brother
Ronald

Photo:
Canadian soldier, Private Ronald MacKinnon, whose 1916 letter from Vimy Ridge is being hailed as a "fantastic find" documenting a previously unknown "Christmas Truce" between German and Allied soldiers during the First World War.
Photograph by: Oxford University Press, Photo Handout

                      (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)




 
The Canadian Virtual War Memorial (CVWM)

Private RONALD  MACKINNON who died on April 9, 1917

Service Number: 157629
Age: 23
Force: Army
Unit: Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regt.)

(More photos at this link.)

Book of Remembrance page:

ww1285.jpg


Attestation Paper:

534262a.gif


534262b.gif

 
The PPCLI War Diary mentions attempts at fraternization, but claims none occurred. Considering it would most likely have been severely punished, both participants and chain of command, if senior commanders had known, it's unlikely that the event would have been recorded in detail.

e001072614.jpg
 
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