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WANTED - OD Medic Brassard

MPSHIELD said:
So then all of these military First Aid bags, first aid kits that we see in vehicles in the CF ....then have obviously either been distributed by the Red Cross or have at least received permission to use the "Red Cross" by the Red Cross? I don't see any info on these kits indicating that the Red Cross has authorized these Olive drab canvass bag (field rescue bags) or Veh First Aide kits to have the Red Cross. Maybe I need to look harder.

I mean the GC and DND would never distribute something to the entire CF that is not authorized .....right?
Just a thought

I got a though too...Like you should think more and speak less. I can't believe you, as a fellow Sr NCO, did not read through the thread above, through the answers given before writing up that drivel.

Again for your benefit, MPSHIELD,
The Red Cross symbol is an identifier of persons and things that are protected under the Geneva conventions as referenced above. The International Red Cross allows it symbol to be used to ID those persons or things, like containers for medical supplies and ambulances.
:brickwall:
On another note, I have see cadets with DND issued First Aid bags (issued by support units). Is this then allowed? Would the "Red Cross" on the bag slung over the cadets shoulder not mis-identify this cadet?
Misidentify the cadet how, as what? A cadet carrying a military first aid kit? The bag is for military medical equipment. Therefore it has the red cross symbol which identifies it as having GC protection. The cadet carrying said item can not wear a red cross brassard (like a medic) because the cadet does not have that protection, because, duh, the cadet is not anyone who would be GC protected.

more from above reference:
Article 38
As a compliment to Switzerland, the heraldic emblem of the red cross on a white ground, formed by reversing the Federal colours, is retained as the emblem and distinctive sign of the Medical Service of armed forces.
Nevertheless, in the case of countries which already use as emblem, in place of the red cross, the red crescent or the red lion and sun on a white ground, those emblems are also recognized by the terms of the present Convention.

Article 39
Under the direction of the competent military authority, the emblem shall be displayed on the flags, armlets and on all equipment employed in the Medical Service.

Article 40
The personnel designated in Article 24 and in Articles 26 and 27 shall wear, affixed to the left arm, a water-resistant armlet bearing the distinctive emblem, issued and stamped by the military authority.

:brickwall:
I have an idea. Why don't you launch an investigation into the misrepresentation of the Red Cross symbol you are alledging, and the obvious violations to the copyright act that must entail. Report your results here when your complete.
 
ParaMedTech-Good info there.
"competent military authority" so then this means that some senior medical official can "authorize" the "Red Cross" on any kit without notifying the "Red Cross"?

WOW, I read some articles on the Red Cross Website and the UN. Very good info there. Like many things, there seems to be a grey area. The Red Cross Website says:
"No organization -- except the Canadian Red Cross and the medical corps of the armed forces during times of armed conflict -- may use the Red Cross emblem in Canada. This use is legislated by the Geneva Conventions Act, the Trade Marks Act and the Canadian Red Cross Society Act. "

According to the Red Cross, military medical personnel during peace time, should not be wearing them the red Cross? Perhaps DND or the CF received permission under the section which the minister can authorize it? In the link below, it says the minister (of what?) can authorize it.  http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs_new/en/au/au063en.html

I could read more, but this thread has gone a huge tangent. Thanks for the info.
 
I don't think this comment belongs here, however since Armymedic commented out in the open i will too.
Armymedic -I think you have taken my comments a little too far. They were to make spark a conversation as to "how far do we take this Red Cross copyright". I myself, took the links provided by paramedic and have educated myself. I was merely sparking interesting questions, some of which I really wanted the answers to.

If my comments offended you, you could have PM'd me instead of bad mouthing me over the this forum. I should be given a chance to a least explained my comments, some of which may have seemed a little sarcastic as to how far the Red Cross on items and people go. You as a fellow Senior NCO should now that you should think and find out the entire situation before acting and making a comment about me.

As for the cadet comment, I was merely pointed a question regarding how far the copyright/Red Cross identification goes.
I'm was in no way belittling the the importance of the Red Cross or the Geneva convention. Just asking questions as to how far this identification is taken.

If you want, I invite you to PM me if you would like to blast me some more. I do not think I deserve this "slag" in an open forum. If I had done something wrong, simply point it out and I could have corrected it, modified my comment, apologized or explained myself. All of which you have not allowed me to do.

If there are anything you wish to clarify, please feel free to message me and i will attempt to clarify my point.
 
MPSHIELD - your comments sounded sarcastic to me. Maybe Armymedic thought so as well. Anyway, the question, methinks, has been answered. I'm sure you guys can resolve this via PM, as suggested..

I'm going to throw a lock on this for now. I'd be happy to re-open it a bit later, if someone has something to add.


Army.ca Staff
:army:
 
Michael Dorosh has some interesting info to add. I'll re-open it...

Please keep it on topic. Thanks in advance
 
I just wanted to say, it is an interesting question - the copyright issue.  I got into a bit of a conversation with the Red Cross dude who I asked for a follow up.

I sewed together a red cross armband as a "reproduction" for a re-enactor and put it up on ebay along with German stretcher bearer armlets.  Ebay has an agreement with the ICRC to protect their copyright, so the auction was pulled.  I emailed for a clarification and got the info already presented in this thread.

So I asked the dude, who had told me that pre-existing red cross armbands could be sold on ebay no problem - they qualify as antiques or collectibles; so if I sold a WW II red cross armband, it is no problem. I could probably sell a current issue red cross brassard as well, if I sold it as a collectible.  But for some reason, if I made my own red cross armband and put it up for sale, it violates the copyright.  I asked the guy - is it okay for a re-enactor to wear the red cross armband if he is portraying a medic or someone else historically granted protection.  He said it was obviously for a public display, so no problem.

So I asked - well, how does a medic "re-enactor" get ahold of a red cross armband - if he's allowed to wear it, why isn't someone allowed to make one and sell it to him, if it was for a legitimate reason?

He stopped returning my emails at that point. ;D

Don't know how "interesting" that was, but thanks for opening it up again, muskrat.  I think it's good that the Red Cross is afforded international protection (along with the Red Crescent, as indicated) but the ICRC is a bit like Disney Inc. in prosecuting their rights, sometimes!  IMO.
 
Here is the literature the Red Cross sent me. Just found it on a search of my own forum.

The
Red Cross Emblem


The Protective Shield of Humanity



The Red Cross:

Five, red, equal-sized squares forming a cross on a white background.

It is one of the most widely recognized emblems
in the world.

It means "Don't Shoot" in
every language.


Introduction

Henry Dunant, a Swiss citizen traveling in northern Italy on business, faced a horrendous sight when he arrived in the village of Solferino in June 1859. On the previous day the armies of France, Sardinia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire had met in battle, and more than 40,000 wounded and dead soldiers still lay on the battlefield. There were few military or local medical services to tend to their wounds, and those that were presnt were completely overwhelmed by the enormity of the task.

Dunant set to work and organized local citizens to set up temporary infirmaries and hospitals. He ensured that the victims from both sides of the conflict received food, water and rudimentary medical attention. This experience transformed Dunant's life, prompting him to chronicle his experiences in a book called A Memory of Solferino.

Public reception of this work inspired Dunant and four other citizens of Geneva to form a committee and organize an international conference in 1863. This conference resulted in the creation of the first Geneva Convention on the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded on the Field of Battle in 1864, and the birth of the International Red Cross Movement.






Henry Dunant
CRCS Photo


Combat Medics
ICRC Photo


Picture a war zone where no-one is spared its fury - medical establishments and staff come under direct fire, the wounded lay untended where they fall, and ambulances are easily identifiable targets for snipers. This picture could be in the Congo, Afghanistan, Chechnya or the West Bank - today.

What Does the Red Cross Emblem Mean?

The first Geneva Convention specifically addressed this issue when it recognized one international symbol - the red cross on a white background - to clearly distinguish medical personnel and facilities (both military and volunteer) of all countries in order to protect them from attack in times of armed conflict. Today, the Red Cross emblem remains a universally recognized symbol of assistance conveying humanity, neutrality and impartiality, with the Red Crescent on a white background enjoying the same status in certain Islamic countries.
Canadian Red Cross workers regularly give up the comfort of their North American existence to help those suffering from famine, disease and armed conflict around the world. They work under conditions of great personnel danger and extreme hardship. They do it in the name of the Red Cross and under the protection of its emblem. Red Cross workers carry no arms. Their only shield is the universally recognized Red Cross emblem.
Who Can Use It?

The Red Cross emblem and the words "Red Cross" may be used in times of both armed conflict and peace to identify facilities for the care of the wounded and sick members of the military, armed forces medical personnel and equipment, and members of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement engaged in humanitarian activities.

Canada is obligated, as a signatory to the 1949Geneva Conventions, to promote respect for the emblem and to take measures to prevent and repress any misuse of the emblem and the "Red Cross" name. It is only through continued vigilance that the emblem's protective role is preserved.

What is a Misuse?

Because the symbol of a red cross is so pervasive, many are tempted to use the Red Cross name and emblem, believing them to be "in the public domain". All unauthorized use is serious because it threatens the integrity of the emblem as a symbol of protection, impartiality and neutrality. Misuse can be found on the Internet, on computer software, on business cards and corporate letterhead, on signs and billboards, on commercial vehicles, on clothing, in catalogs, books and magazines…just about anywhere. The most common forms of misuse occur in the health and retail worlds and often relate to first aid products and services, or toys. Some people mistakenly believe that the Red Cross emblem is an internationally recognized symbol of first aid. IT IS NOT.

Is the Emblem a Corporate Logo?

The Red Cross emblem IS NOT a corporate logo. Both international treaty law and Canadian law protect the Red Cross emblem from any commercial use. Use of the emblem is restricted so that its distinctive meaning is not eroded. These limits are not there to protect any vested interest of the Red Cross as an organization. In fact, the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement and individual national Red Cross or Red Crescent societies do not own the emblems, but are, in effect licensees under the Geneva Conventions with specific authority to use the "Red Cross" name and emblem for specific humanitarian purposes.

In peacetime, the emblem indicates people, programs and objects associated with the various components of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. Because the Canadian Red Cross Society does provide first aid training and humanitarian services, the emblem is legitimately linked to these activities. But, the Society cannot grant permission for its emblem to be used at first aid or emergency locations when it has no control over the location or its personnel.

Why Protect the Emblem in Canada?

Some may think it unreasonable for The Canadian Red Cross Society to be so zealous in its protection of the emblem in this country. The Society believes that it must actively safeguard the emblem at home if we expect other countries to do the same abroad. Recent history has also shown that we Canadians are not immune from conflict within our borders. In 1990, during the Oka Crisis, the Society was called upon to act as a neutral intermediary between the Mohawk Warriors and the Canadian Forces. Under the protection of the emblem, Red Cross workers provided food, medical supplies and other necessities to those affected by the standoff.

Can We be Forced to Comply?

Most people and organizations that have misused the Red Cross emblem voluntarily agree to stop once its true significance has been explained to them. When voluntary compliance is not forthcoming, both the Government of Canada and the Society CAN and WILL take legal action.

Measures to protect the emblem exist in three separate pieces of Canadian legislation: the Geneva Conventions Act, the Canadian Red Cross Society Act, and the Trade Marks Act.


Red Cross Hospital Ship
ICRC Photo

Can We Use a Similar Symbol?

The use of any form of red cross on a white background, or any symbol so closely resembling a red cross as to be likely mistaken for it, is prohibited. This includes a red cross that has writing or designs on it, and any cross of a different shade of red, such as reddish-orange, pink or burgundy. Similarly, the use of a white cross on a red background, the national flag of Switzerland, is also prohibited under the Geneva Conventions Act and the Trade Marks Act.

What Can We Use?

An alternative symbol of first aid - a white cross on a green background - is recommended by the International Standards Organization and used by various national governments, including Canada. The Standards Council of Canada may provide further information about this symbol.

How Can We Help to Protect the Emblem?

Those of us who live without the constant fear of armed conflict must protect, nurture and spread knowledge of the true meaning of the Red Cross emblem. Please report any misuse of the "Red Cross" emblem or name to your local Red Cross branch or contact us on the Canadian Red Cross web site, www.redcross.ca.

No misuse is too small to report. By vigourously preventing the misuse of the emblem in peacetime, we preserve its ability to protect the vulnerable in times of armed conflict.

"The Red Cross is a light showing the right way in the darkness…It is our duty to see to it that it does not go out.."

Albert Schweitzer
 
I just went and looked at the FA kits at Crappy Tire last night, and you are correct, they are a white cross on a Red Background.

Of course, now I see from the above article, that is also a protected symbol, being trademarked by Switzerland.

I think that they get around it though, as the cross that they use is 'long-armed', and not the 5 equal squares that is the IRC and the Swiss symbols.

Very interesting discussion, folks, thanks for clearing this all up.

qjdb
 
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