Western Society & Home-grown Terrorists.

[48Highlander]

Mr. Hindy first raised the charges in a meeting in May with dozens of Muslim leaders and Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan. But he has also circulated flyers about the alleged incident, urging Muslims never to talk to CSIS. His subsequent interviews to newspapers and Toronto talk-radio stations have outraged CSIS leaders.

Looks like he's trying to turn people's view of CSIS into the same way they view the CIA.  It's exactly these sorts of baseless rumours and accusations made by influential figures which lead to all the myths about CIA death squads, assasinations, abductions, and experiments.  Eventually the rumours become self-sustaining, and no ammount of contrary evidence will ever dissuade people from beleiving them.

 

[1feral1]

These are th dangerous ones, and will do anything to cause unrest within Canada and continue to influence the youth of his religion. All one needs is ONE nutcase to listen to this purveyor of hate, to become a human ' non-elec det', and to put Canada up with London, Madrid, Kuta Beach and the rest. It's simple, this guy should quietly and discretly 'disappear' without a trace on his next trip overseas.

What Canada must do is ammend its laws for any migrant/naturalised citizen who so promotes hatred or influences any terrorist behaviour to be arrested, interogated, and then deported with a life ban from returning, but I prefer the 'disappearance method'. Australia is also considering ammending its laws,a s there is way too many radical muslims here, who do nothing but make the matters worse.

What wil it take? I think we know, and lets hope that never happens.

Wes

 

[Slim]

"It was a wise decision by your predecessor, Mr. Chrétien, to disassociate Canada from such imperialistic practices. That decision was made to protect the Canadian public."

There is a prime example of someone trying to play on the publics fears and seperate us from our allies...Then , once they're defeated, the "terrorists" (Read: murderers and scumbags...Thanks Rick!) will turn their attention to us!

If they all hate the west so very much I for one would like to know what the heck they're all doing living over here!?

As far as I'm concerned they're most welcome to return to whaereever they came from...You don't see me going to the middle east and demanding that they take up christianity do you?!

What am I missing in all this?!

Slim

 

[Joe Blow]

Edward,

That is a really thoughtful post.

Changing what young Muslims are taught about the West in schools and mosques here, in Canada â “ that may mean deporting sheiks and imams and the like and prosecuting religious leaders for hate crimes (those laws are on the books to 'protect' everyone) and incitement to violence.

â ?... try to change the face of the Islamic faith in the Middle East.â ?  That is precisely what we should, in my view must be doing.

Forget about 'bringing democracy to the Middle East,' it is unlikely to take hold and endure until after there is an Arabic (and Persian/West Asian, too) enlightenment which may not be possible until after there is an Arab-Islamic reformation

I differ a bit from your post in that I think that an Enlightenment can be brought about before a Reformation.  However I agree completely that an Enlightenment is necessary.  We've rushed off to create new polities in other cultures without (it seems) laying the philosophical ground work for what we are doing.

The desired changes to the polity in these regions - and the politics in Canadian mosques - are not likely to take hold unless there is a move away from accepting religious scholars as being on par with biologists, physicists or rational (read reasonably methodical) philosophers when questions of reality are at stake.  The fruits of our democracy (the liberties that we enjoy, the responsibilities to one another that we recognize, the debate about how we balance these - and the reasonably peaceful way we go about doing so) are indeed a result of the impact of the Enlightenment on our culture. 

(A quick aside:  The Enlightenment is a living thing. Lets keep it that way. - Advocate the teaching of the principals of reason in grade school.  We should be teaching how to reason methodically (ie. how to do philosophy) the way we learn how to approach mathematics... There is a right way and a wrong way... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_form)

Anyway, I think that a reasonable use of CSIS is to bring about those changes in that culture.  (Thank Muslim culture very kindly for preserving the wisdom of the Greeks through the European dark ages ..and then)  Introduce the Enlightenment to Islam.  Weeding out Imams in our own backyard that are inconsistent with that goal is a good start.  Let's nurture informants in mosques, let CSIS ID those imams preaching cultural toxicity, and change the laws so they can be deported post haste.  (Lets clean up our own yard first.)  An active foreign policy is a good follow through. (We need an intelligence service with a foreign mandate..)

However, if we are to engineer an Enlightenment in Muslim culture, we should be pressed to answer why we don't do it in other cultures as well, because - broadly speaking - this means discrimination based (not on conclusion, but) on the style by which one arrives at a conclusion.  (Applied more thoroughly for ex.,  it would mean deporting sundry members of my family. Devout Catholics and Baptists ..or at least infiltrating their churches ..and working to influence the cultures of religiously conscious governments everywhere.) 

The answer is that this is a big manpower problem.  Lets focus the attention where it is warranted.  As I have said above: although not all Muslims are terrorists, all of the terrorists that we presently need to be concerned about happen to be Muslim, so lets get to work.

 

[Slim]

I think that a reasonable use of CSIS is to bring about those changes in that culture.

JB

I'm not sure that I understand where you're coming from.

CSIS is a domestic intelligence gathering agency. What you're describing is more along the lines of Welfare Canada.

Could you explain a bit better please.

slim
STAFF

 

[Joe Blow]

CSIS is domestic security agency, so  I think it is within thier province to establish informers in Canadian mosques to report on the brand of Islam that is being preached there (..and with the appropriate legal changes) do something about it.

Edit: ..and we need a foreign intelligence gathering apparatus and complimentary foreign policy to do the same on an international scale.

Edit Again" Whoa.. spelling.  Sorry.

 

[Slim]

CSIS is domestic security agency, so   I think it is within thier province to establish informers in Canadian mosques to report on the brand of Islam that is being preached there (..and with the appropriate legal changes) do something about it.

What you're getting at is only a small part of the intelligence gathering process.

The trouble will end only when young Muslim men and women are no longer brought up to hate everything that the west stands for and is. That is the responsability of the cultures they come from, not of CSIS.

 

[Joe Blow]

I agree with you but I think that we should use our intelligence services and structure our laws to help ensure that (at least to begin with) the Muslims of Canada are no longer brought up to hate everything that the west stands for. 

Ideally we should structure our foreign policy to further the same goals on an international level.  Infultrate foreign mosques the same way we should be infultrating domestic ones ..and be aware of who is promoting what ..and do something about it.

EDIT:

..and do something about it

..work to remove from the community the influence of agents that preach a doctrine counter to our interests and cannot be reasoned with , because they (imams, politicians, etc.) are unswervingly motivated by their dogma.  Domestically, that means deport them.  Internationally, it means being either more direct ( :threat or more creative.

 

[Slim]

  Infultrate foreign mosques the same way we should be infultrating domestic ones ..and be aware of who is promoting what ..and do something about it.

Again this is a function of intelligence gathering and is in all likelyhood already being done. Political solutions can only go so far. The responsability lies with the root culture to change the way things are being done. Political pressure can be applied in certain ways to either give incentive or wave the big stick as required. But in the end its not up to us to raise little Muslim girls and boys not to hate us for no other reason that being what we are.

Our govt's job is to protect us as people of this country. That means having a well trained and effective military with strong leadership and good equipment. It also involves backing the leaders of the military up when the bleeding heart PC crowd demand that we not be so "hard" on the poor disenfranchised "freedom fighters" who are in effect trying to kill us.

The fight must be aggressively taken to the enemy and they must be stomped on hard, so they know that when they start blowing up women and kids it won't be tolerated and they'll be dealt with in the most severe manner imaginable.

JB

I'm going to suggest that you really don't seem to have a clear understanding of the subject we're discussing. Perhaps some more reading and time on the search engine is required before you wade back in...

Slim
STAFF

 

[paracowboy]

I dunno, Slim. JB seems to have some sort of grip, he just isn't aware of the finer details of CSIS' role. A lot of what he's advocating is similar to what others have in the past. Change the way the enemy look at us, make friends, influence people, shoot them in the face.

 

[Jungle]

Change the way the enemy look at us, make friends, influence people, shoot them in the face.

I like that... Fight fire with Fire !!! >

 

[Edward Campbell]

I dunno, Slim. JB seems to have some sort of grip, he just isn't aware of the finer details of CSIS' role. A lot of what he's advocating is similar to what others have in the past. Change the way the enemy look at us, make friends, influence people, shoot them in the face.

I am arguing for a nice, new age, holistic approach: I want to upset the entire applecart - in mosques in Toronto and madrasses in Pakistan, simultaneously.

First I want to ensure that we do adequate enemy identification so that we do not waste resources on non-existent 'targets.'  We have an enemy; it consists of many, very loosely connected movement which share a handful of salient features.  They are, predominantly (but not exclusively)  (I am repeating myself here):

"¢ Arabic

"¢ Extremist

"¢ Fundamentalist

"¢ Islamic

My holistic approach requires:

"¢ Excellent, SECRET intelligence - secretly gathered (at home and abroad), secretly analyzed and not shared with the press;

"¢ Active defensive forces - military, police and security who do not just react to an attack, but who can and will take the fight to the enemy -

              o     in mosques in Toronto,

              o     in caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and

              o     in bank computers in London, New York, Paris, Toronto and Zurich; and

"¢ Active defensive education systems - which we use to remind ourselves about who we are and what our cultural (social and political) values are and why they are superior to the cultural values which our self-declared enemy wants to impose on us.

We need to argue with the imans here in Canada - for the soul of Muslims.  We have to explain that, in Canada, freedom and liberty cannot be constrained by beliefs - each person, man or woman, is free and equal in Canada, despite the tenets of any religion and that each man and woman can be a 'good Muslim' and a good Canadian, too, by adhering to the fundamentals of Islam while discarding the Arab foundametalist (Irshad Manji's good, descriptive word from 'The Trouble With Islam') cultural baggage.

We need to pursue and kill other imans in the Middle East and West Asia and shut down their maddrasses - which are, in too many cases, nothing more than incubators for terrorists.

We need to strengthen friendly, moderate Islamic states and set them to the task of sorting out the enemy states - we should pay Muslims to kill Muslims, and sell them the guns, too.

Then, when the dust has settled, in about 45 years, we can volunteer to keep the peace - a peace which may have to be like that Calgacus ascribed to the Romans as: "..they make a wilderness and call it peace.â ?

 

[48Highlander]

Again this is a function of intelligence gathering and is in all likelyhood already being done. Political solutions can only go so far. The responsability lies with the root culture to change the way things are being done. Political pressure can be applied in certain ways to either give incentive or wave the big stick as required. But in the end its not up to us to raise little Muslim girls and boys not to hate us for no other reason that being what we are.

No, but it IS to our benefit to do it.  Just like it's not our responsibility to teach children about sex-ed, or to stay away from drugs, but it is to our society's benefit to ensure that they are taught that information collectively, instead of hoping that their parents will do it.

Our govt's job is to protect us as people of this country. That means having a well trained and effective military with strong leadership and good equipment. It also involves backing the leaders of the military up when the bleeding heart PC crowd demand that we not be so "hard" on the poor disenfranchised "freedom fighters" who are in effect trying to kill us.

The fight must be aggressively taken to the enemy and they must be stomped on hard, so they know that when they start blowing up women and kids it won't be tolerated and they'll be dealt with in the most severe manner imaginable.

I agree with that, however, as long as there are radical Muslims who hate us, there will be suicide bombings.  Through military action we may be able to severly limit their ability to carry out such attacks, but we will never completely defeat them.  The only way that we could discourage them through the use of sheer force would be to show them we have no compunctions with being 100 times worse than they are.  In other words, they bomb a subway, we nuke a town.  We'd have to be ready to kill a hundred thousand of their wives and children for every 10 of ours they kill, otherwise, they'll just use our military campaigns as an excuse to carry out more bombings.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating actually doing that, just stating that there's really nothing else we can do militarily that will have the effect you're talking about.  If we want to win this war withou that sort of mass slaughter, it's got to be done through numerous methods, not just combat.

 

[paracowboy]

I am arguing for a nice, new age, holistic approach: I want to upset the entire applecart - in mosques in Toronto and madrasses in Pakistan, simultaneously.

First I want to ensure that we do adequate enemy identification so that we do not waste resources on non-existent 'targets.'   We have an enemy; it consists of many, very loosely connected movement which share a handful of salient features.   They are, predominantly (but not exclusively)   (I am repeating myself here):

"¢ Arabic

"¢ Extremist

"¢ Fundamentalist

"¢ Islamic

My holistic approach requires:

"¢ Excellent, SECRET intelligence - secretly gathered (at home and abroad), secretly analyzed and not shared with the press;

"¢ Active defensive forces - military, police and security who do not just react to an attack, but who can and will take the fight to the enemy -

               o     in mosques in Toronto,

               o     in caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and

               o     in bank computers in London, New York, Paris, Toronto and Zurich; and

"¢ Active defensive education systems - which we use to remind ourselves about who we are and what our cultural (social and political) values are and why they are superior to the cultural values which our self-declared enemy wants to impose on us.

We need to argue with the imans here in Canada - for the soul of Muslims.   We have to explain that, in Canada, freedom and liberty cannot be constrained by beliefs - each person, man or woman, is free and equal in Canada, despite the tenets of any religion and that each man and woman can be a 'good Muslim' and a good Canadian, too, by adhering to the fundamentals of Islam while discarding the Arab foundametalist (Irshad Manji's good, descriptive word from 'The Trouble With Islam') cultural baggage.

We need to pursue and kill other imans in the Middle East and West Asia and shut down their maddrasses - which are, in too many cases, nothing more than incubators for terrorists.

We need to strengthen friendly, moderate Islamic states and set them to the task of sorting out the enemy states - we should pay Muslims to kill Muslims, and sell them the guns, too.

Then, when the dust has settled, in about 45 years, we can volunteer to keep the peace - a peace which may have to be like that Calgacus ascribed to the Romans as: "..they make a wilderness and call it peace.â ?

that's what I said, Ed. Just used fewer words. 

 

[Andyboy]

Good post Edward, I like your proposal, however, to steal a quote from another board, "unless we believe in our product, believe in our own way of life and convince ourselves that it is worth defending, there is scant chance of convincing anyone to do the same."

I think there are a lot of people in Canada, besides Muslims, that need convincing.

Andrew

 

[1feral1]

Now here is gratitude for ya's. The two identified would-be bombers were not only living in a government supplied flat, but were also on wellfare to boot! Like I said, now thats gratitude.

We are hearing this am that up to 9 more arrests today, and some are charged with harbouring. As I have said on previous threads, the bad guys are indeed hiding and living amoung their own kind. Goes to show you where these poeple's loyalties truly are.

Gotta get to the shower, its after 0600. Hvae a good day Canucks! Mine is just beginning.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[paracowboy]

interesting article on the phenomenon of Muslims biting the hand, etc...

Washington Post
July 27, 2005
Revolt of Privilege, Muslim Style
By David Ignatius

When you read reports that the Muslim terrorists who bombed the London Underground may have gotten together for a pre-attack whitewater rafting trip in Wales, you realize that this is a very particular enemy -- and one that is recognizable to students of history.

This is the revolt of the privileged, Islamic version. They have risen so far, so fast in the dizzying culture of the West that they have become enraged, disoriented and vulnerable to manipulation. Their spiritual leader is a Saudi billionaire's son who grew up with big ideas and too much money. He created a new identity for himself as a jihad leader, carrying the banner of a pristine Islam from the days of the Prophet Muhammad. The zenith of his warped amalgam of ancient and modern was having holy warriors fly airplanes into skyscrapers.

Reading some of the London bombers' biographies, you realize the depth of their cultural confusion: "Shahzad Tanweer, 23, came from one of Beeston's most respected families," wrote the London Independent about one of the July 7 bombers. And according to The Post, he had just received a red Mercedes from his dad.

This is not Patty Hearst or the Weather Underground -- it's a far more deadly revolt of privilege. But people who were students in the 1960s will remember the phenomenon: the idealistic kids from elite public and private schools who went to college, felt guilty about their comfort amid a brutal world and joined the Progressive Labor Party to ally with oppressed Third World workers. There is a cult aspect to this jihad -- an extreme version of the logic that has always drawn disaffected kids to self-destructive behavior.

Take a tour of some of the jihadist Web sites and you'll see a kind of fantasy world -- in which angry, alienated Muslims are stewing in scenarios of revenge. Young Muslims can buy videos of Iraqi insurgents setting off roadside bombs and firing mortars in "Iraqi R.A.W." and "Iraqi R.A.W. 2: The Anger Brigade." Or they can travel with Chechen fighters in "Russian Hell," Vols. 1, 2, 3 and 4.

The Islamic extremists are often described as "Salafists," and it's interesting to explore just what this says about their spiritual moorings. The Arabic word salaf means "past," and the Salafists are often said to be trying to re-create the pure values of the ancient ones who were the prophet's companions.

According to Vincenzo Oliveti in his fine study of the Salafists, titled "Terror's Source," their religious teaching casts aside the traditional canon -- the "Sunna" that make up Sunni Islam -- in favor of a have-it-your-way smorgasbord. A favorite saying of the Salafists, according to Oliveti, is nahnu rijal wa hum rijal , which he translates loosely as "We are all men so why should we accept that anybody knows better than us?"

What will stop this revolt of privileged Muslims? One possibility is that it will be checked by the same process that derailed the revolt of the rich kids in America after the 1960s -- namely, the counter-revolt of the poor kids. Poor Muslims simply can't afford the rebellion of their wealthy brethren, and the havoc it has brought to the House of Islam. For make no mistake: The people suffering from jihadism are mostly Muslims.

I can't imagine that the poor Egyptians who've been struggling to make a living in the resort towns around Sharm el-Sheikh are too happy this week. The jihadists who came bumping over the mountains to detonate last weekend's bombs may have been thinking of the 72 virgins that awaited them in heaven. But the Egyptian fellah is thinking about where he's going to get his next paycheck to feed his family.

And I can't imagine that the poor Iraqis whose families are being blown away by daily suicide bombs feel a great kinship with the Saudi jihadists who have been slipping across the border via Syria, trying to slake their angst about modern life through martyrdom.

There is a ferment in the Islamic world that is pushing for change, not death. I had a glimpse into it last week at a fascinating compilation of recent Iranian films, sponsored by, of all things, a Pentagon strategy group called the Highlands Forum. It was described as an evening of "strategic listening," and we watched a stunning documentary called "Zinat: One Special Day," about an Iranian woman in a poor village who dares to run for her local council. The men of her village have talked and talked about paving the road and never gotten it done. She defies the traditionalists. She wins the election; she paves the road. That's the power that will turn back the jihad of the privileged.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.  Didn't trouble youths of the past take their dads car out or stay out late.  Don't tell me that bad parenting is leading to extremists.

 

[Joe Blow]

I'm going to suggest that you really don't seem to have a clear understanding of the subject we're discussing. Perhaps some more reading and time on the search engine is required before you wade back in...

I understand that CSIS is a domestic intelligence gathering service (although admittedly my knowledge ends there (..I've read one book about CSIS - Covert Entry: Spies, Lies and Crimes Inside Canada's Secret Service by Andrew Mitrovica - but I can't claim to have read the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act).

All I am suggesting is that we use that service to ID which Imams preach the toxicity we are trying to remove. Additionally we should have in place legislation that allows us to remove them from the country post haste (ie. empowers the RCMP to put them on a plane ..like now.)  We should "weed the garden".

If we are good at doing these things (and if we are good at getting moderate Muslims to help us) we will go a long way - by the process of elimination - toward creating an Islamic culture in Canada that is more desirable ..ie. one that doesn't teach 

young Muslim men and women are no longer brought up to hate everything that the west stands for and is.

Further we should have an international intelligence gathering agency that can do the same thing within the Islamic community abroad that CSIS does domestically ..and in place of 'deportation legislation', internationally we should employ military solutions to remove the offending agents.  I think we can learn from the Israelis here yes?

I like your holistic approach.  I think that the approach I am suggesting has a part in there.

Anyway, I wanted to clarify as I think I may have been misunderstood.  However if these are really not workable options for reasons that I would  understand better with more research, I promise I will shut up now. 

Joe

PS: I think the above article is a mildly interesting take.  I hadn't really considered it like that.  Spoiled rich kids are a bigger problem then just being repugnant I guess..

 

[Slim]

I hadn't really considered it like that.  Spoiled rich kids are a bigger problem then just being repugnant I guess..

Always have been...Poor people don't have the time or resources to cause really big trouble, They're too busy just trying to survive from one day to the next.