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What comes first Equipment or Doctrine? (from: I see a Role for MGS)

a_majoor

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As far as I understand; the MGS in the SBCT is crewed by infantry soldiers integral to the unit. This is very much the model of the USMC LAV Coy, but then again, the Marines are fully integrated well beyiond anything we do.

We need to understand what we want to do with our doctrine before we pull out the Sears catalogue and go shopping for "stuff"
 
But Arthur, "Stuff" determines what you can do.
 
CSA 105 said:
No, your doctrine should determine what you MUST do, SHOULD do and COULD do, then you should buy the appropriate "Stuff" to do those things.
Yes.  However, there must also be a feedback loop.  Doctrine must not fail to exploit what is technologically feasible and there is a risk (if doctrine is looked at in isolation) that doctrine will be written only to what the author knows to be achievable while falling short of what is actually possible (maybe even COTS possible).
 
How about starting from the position of "What would I like to do?" as opposed to "What do I need to do?"

I need to stay warm and dry.

There is a hole in my roof.  I would like to fix it.  But.  I don't have the money to buy a tarp let alone reroof the house.

1. What would I like to do
2. What is possible
3. What is affordable
4. What is acceptable

 
Kirkhill said:
How about starting from the position of "What would I like to do?" as opposed to "What do I need to do?"

I need to stay warm and dry.

There is a hole in my roof.  I would like to fix it.  But.  I don't have the money to buy a tarp let alone reroof the house.

1. What would I like to do
2. What is possible
3. What is affordable
4. What is acceptable

But that is exactly what we are saying. What you "need" to do is stay warm and dry. Items 2,3 and 4 are mostly iterative processes to determine how you will be able to do what you "need" to do, and what "stuff" you need to do it. If done properly, you may end up with "out of the box" thinking and come up with a different solution than what might have been expected.

One example is how the "Fighter Mafia" managed to come up with the F-15 and F-16, even though the powers that be in the USAF hierarchy had initially convinced themselves and the contractors that an all singing and dancing F-111 clone was the way to go. The USAF had identified certain "needs", but since the Fighter Mafia was using John Boyd's "Energy-Maneuverability"  theory to determine "What was possible" they were able to change many minds about what was affordable and acceptable.

Starting with "Stuff" already delimits the "what is possible". Operational experience, kludges, upgrades and clever operators dreaming up new TTPs "may" be able to get you through, but examples ranging from the Boulton-Paul Defiant fighter plane to US "Tank Destroyers" to "Ferdinand the Elephant" SP assault guns should indicate there are pretty strict limits to what you can do if you are starting with the wrong "Stuff".
 
Point taken on the iterative process - and I agree - but if it is an iterative process does it matter where you start?  If somebody starts from the position of "Here's a bunch of Stuff, what can we do with it?" and some one else at the table starts from the position "Here's what I need or want to do, what Stuff is available?" does it really matter so long as both people are at the table adressing the issues of "Where do we go from here?"

In the OODA loop, observe-orient-decide-act-observe-orient-decide-act-observe-orient-decide-act... does it really matter where you start in the loop? Does it matter if you are forced to act before you have had a chance to observe-orient-decide so long as after you act you continue observing-orienting and deciding before acting again?
 
Kirkhill said:
Point taken on the iterative process - and I agree - but if it is an iterative process does it matter where you start? 
You must start with need because it is the goal that focuses everything else.  If something is unrelated to the need, then it is irrelevant even if it is acceptable, achievable, and affordable.
 
I tend to believe in inductive reasoning, while I observe that our system seems based on a belief in deductive reasoning.  We would like to think that doctrine should drive material, but sometimes a little change comes along and doctrine has to adapt by reverse-engineering itself to the new technology.  The machine gun didn't come out of some capability development board, and I imagine that 1905-era armies were arguing over which PYs to assign to this non-doctrinal piece of equipment that some folks were demanding to be adopted after seeing what it could do in Manchuria.
 
MCG said:
You must start with need because it is the goal that focuses everything else.  If something is unrelated to the need, then it is irrelevant even if it is acceptable, achievable, and affordable.

On that point, everything starts with panic - we need it and dont have it.  But otherwise, I agree

We've seen a lot of this recently in Afghanistan and before that in many other places.  Did doctrine encourage us to send over tanks?  (Actually it would have if we had looked at the right doctrine instead of some balls-up concept of peacekeeping).  Did doctrine and studies and negotiations get the uniform changed from green to brown?  Did doctrine convince us to get new armour, or other new fancy kit no one had ever seen before?  It was need, and that need drove the system.  Doctrine was only changed afterwards. 
 
Docrtine can easily be developed without equipment: look at the development of combined arms theory in the British and German armies in the 20's and 30s when much of the kit either didn't exist or was composed of inadequate stand-ins. Good doctrine, by intent, is pretty broad and readily adaptable stuff. If it wasn't it wouldn't be much use. Canadian doctrine (perhaps to some folks' surprise...) is evolving pretty well-just take a look at the new CFP 300-001 Land Operations-very up to date.  There actually is a fairly good link between theatre, Lessons Learned and the Army training system. Some doctrine stuff is lagging, but mainly because of horsepower shortages.

TTPs, on the other hand, are almost directly driven by equipment, because they tend to be about how specific things are done with certain bits of kit.  Sometimes I think we say "doctrine" when we really mean "TTPs".

Cheers
 
Oh my has Rick thrown a wrench into the works?
It is well known that the CDS has a affinity for the U.S. system after he did his time in Texas.

I for one do not like it.

Yes the U.S. are our neighbours but that does not mean we have to copy cat in regards to their Military System.


We should already know from our past when we were cannon fodder in WWI,WWII with the British.

Canada should develop it's own and stay the course and not flip flop like we have done for the last 40 yrs.
Yes that is what we have done is flip flop.
I have seen and read 3 white papers on defence since I joined 30yrs ago and all professed new kit,max training, etc.
Yet to see any one of them completed. ::)

The time has come where we as a Nation suck back and reload and REALY decide what we whant from all 3 branch's of the C.F. and decide what will be the aim for the C.F. and Canada as whole.

If not the our right to the North will be taken from us.

Nick

:cdn:

UBIQUE











 
pbi said:
Docrtine can easily be developed without equipment: look at the development of combined arms theory in the British and German armies in the 20's and 30s when much of the kit either didn't exist or was composed of inadequate stand-ins. Good doctrine, by intent, is pretty broad and readily adaptable stuff. If it wasn't it wouldn't be much use. Canadian doctrine (perhaps to some folks' surprise...) is evolving pretty well-just take a look at the new CFP 300-001 Land Operations-very up to date.  There actually is a fairly good link between theatre, Lessons Learned and the Army training system. Some doctrine stuff is lagging, but mainly because of horsepower shortages.

TTPs, on the other hand, are almost directly driven by equipment, because they tend to be about how specific things are done with certain bits of kit.  Sometimes I think we say "doctrine" when we really mean "TTPs".

Cheers

With respect pbi wasn't the Doctrine of the 20s and 30s the outgrowth of the observed technology of WW 1?  I believe it was seeing the combined impact of radios, artillery ranging systems, aircraft and tanks that resulted in Fuller's Plan 1919 which in turn led to Liddel Hart and then Guderian.  Those plans were also impacted by the reorg of the inf that was possible because of the introduction of the section LMG, the rifle grenade, the 3" Stokes battalion mortar, and the battalion HMGs - those technologies permitted the tactics which became doctrine. 

Although I could also argue that the mud and the trenches created the need and technology was canvassed to determine what was possible and practicable.  Once Best Available Technologies were fielded then TTPs were adjusted and in the fullness of time became Doctrine.
 
The evolution of doctrine is driven by many things, Kirkhill. The doctrine adopted by most continental armies prior to WWI was partly driven by technological advances such as rifled firearms, telegraphs and railways, but also by what might be described as an philosophical belief in the ability of the human spirit to prevail, hence the emphasis of the supremacy of cold steel in the face of fire.

The belief in mechanization in the post WWI period was more of a reaction to the horrors of the stalemate of trench warfare. Combined arms doctrine was well understood prior to WWI (indeed, sophisticated combined arms "doctrine" was understood in the ancient world), but had largely been abandoned after the opening battles of the WWI due to the massive casualties and the loss of the experienced pre war cadre of officers and NCO's.

Mechanized combined arms doctrines developed by the UK, Germany and the Red Army is actually rather similar (since many of the underlying assumptions are the same) despite the differences in the technologies available to the various parties. Some of the differences turned out to be vital (German doctrine suggested aviation was a form of tactical artillery, which limited the flexibility of the Luftwaffe as the war progressed), but it was doctrine which suggested the sort of aircraft which should be developed. Later, when that idea was overtaken by events, German industry struggled to meet the new demands (see Luft 46), but it was brilliant ad hockery.


Today, we see doctrine driven by both the possibilities available with "smart" weapons, but also political considerations to limit costs,  casualties and loss of morale. It will be interesting to see how this develops over time.
 
The concept of combined arms dates back along ways (romans with chariots riding into battle, fire support from archers, men with spears and swords to close with and destroy, etc).
Its kind of interesting to look at how Art breaks down things. I see WWI the start of a major technology "bump" that changed the way we fight wars (Indirect artillery, machine guns, trenches, relying less on the horse, the intro of the tank, etc, etc)
 
I suppose everyone has their favorite technology "bump", WWI in my view is actually the culmination of technical trends dating back to about the time of the American Civil war. While rifled firearms, quick firing artillery and even trenches and barbed wire first made their large scale appearance in that war, the real technological changes that overturned millennia of military tradition and knowledge was the introduction of the telegraph and railroads.

The telegraph broke the age old limitation of command and control by personal presence and messages carried by runners and couriers.

Railroads provided logistical support at greater scales and speeds than possible by animal transport, foraging or even water transport.

Together, these innovations really define the start of modern warfare.
 
If we are talking about "bumps" as being revolutions then I have a couple of choices.  I see a revolution as being something that completely changes the "rules" of combat.  My own test is that would a general from a previous era recognize the extant tactics.  I think that there were two early revolutions that happened rather close to each other.  The first was having some form of close-order drill and the second was the use of horses.  Homeric epic poetry aside, war was changing (in those societies that employed these techniques) from single or tribal combat into battles between mass armies where group cohesion meant more than individual skill in battle.

The army that kept its nerve and stuck together despite the odds could prevail.  Discipline, bravery, keeping ranks and the ability to execute drill under great duress could make all the difference.

I think that war trundled on until about 1900 to 1904 along those same lines.  Armies would fight in relatively compact lines.  Cavalry use had waxed and waned over the centuries and indeed by the US Civil War was not really the shock arm that it had occasionally evolved into.  Nevertheless, I think that Alexander would have recognized Waterloo or Gettysburg as being battles he could fight.  Indeed, I think that his army could have done quite well with a quick one-week course on firearms.

I haven't called gunpowder a revolution and that is a calculated risk as opposed to an oversight.  Cannon, perhaps, could be seen as being revolutionary in what they did to seige warfare, but in a general sense battles fought in the late 18th century were fought much as they were centuries before.  True rifles may have been the fore-runners of the upcoming Firepower Revolution.

The British gained a glimpse of the revolution in the Boer War, and the whole world saw it in Manchuria in 1904.  Machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and quick-firing artillery meant that the old virtues of bravery and discipline under fire could be turned into deadly vices.  (I didn't fully undestand what quick-firing artillery was and why the 1904 observers were so exicted.  The recoil mechanisms that we take for granted had only recently been introduced and guns were now much more accurate as well as being able to fire more rapidly).  I don't know if barbed wire and trenches should be seen as revolutionary but perhaps as adaptations to the machine guns and quick firing artillery.

The Japanese eventually abandoned their Prussian field regulations (their doctrine) and blue uniforms and went to dull uniforms and skirmish lines.  Siege guns were used to pound fortifications instead of charges on foot (the Germans took notice of that) and cavalry didn't have much too do, much to the disappointment of the visiting Cavalry attaches.  A visit to the front at Mukden revealed the nature of "the empty battlefield" where infiltration and trench lines replaced the formed up ranks of previous generations.  British observers were gratified to see that their decisions from the Boer War had been validated, while French observers drew that the "offensive spirit" of the Japanese had allowed them to break through the stalemate against the passive Russians.  The results of the latter analysis played themselves out tragically in WWI.

I would argue that this revolutionary doctrinal earthquake continued through to 1918.  The integration of tanks, artillery, infantry and airpower backed by a modern logistical network was realized and put into practice.  World War II took the methods of 1918 and refined them or evolved them to greter degree. 

I would argue that we are still waiting for the next revolution.  Our doctrine is actually pretty good at being descriptive.  Doctrine, however, has problems being predictive about changes.  It is hard to read future technologies and how emerging technologies will influence our business.  If changes in technology are only really evolutionary then the extant proven doctrine should generally prevail.  If, however, the technology is truly revolutionary then doctrine should be discarded.  The trick is telling the difference. 
 
Tango2Bravo said:
I think that war trundled on until about 1900 to 1904 along those same lines.  Armies would fight in relatively compact lines.  Cavalry use had waxed and waned over the centuries and indeed by the US Civil War was not really the shock arm that it had occasionally evolved into.  Nevertheless, I think that Alexander would have recognized Waterloo or Gettysburg as being battles he could fight.  Indeed, I think that his army could have done quite well with a quick one-week course on firearms.

I will stipulate that an Alexander, Hannibal or Henry V would indeed recognize Waterloo or Gettysburg, and even thrash the likes of Hooker or Burnside (although how well they would do against a Lee or Sherman is debatable), but that would be irrelevant. The great Generals of the past would not be fighting against the commanders in the field but against Halleck and Lincoln, who have the ability to direct and supply armies across a continent through the use of the telegraph and railroad, and the industrial power of the Union to back them. Doctrine was thus greatly expanded to include factors of time, space and logistics which were not possible in the campaigns of the past.
 
I don't believe in revolutions.  The application of technology to battle takes place either through a slow filtering process through existing doctrine or simply by pure accident.  With every emerging technology there was a period of time for this to occur.  As well, technology is applied to doctrine differently by different people.  This would imply evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary trends.
 
Thucydides said:
I will stipulate that an Alexander, Hannibal or Henry V would indeed recognize Waterloo or Gettysburg, and even thrash the likes of Hooker or Burnside (although how well they would do against a Lee or Sherman is debatable), but that would be irrelevant. The great Generals of the past would not be fighting against the commanders in the field but against Halleck and Lincoln, who have the ability to direct and supply armies across a continent through the use of the telegraph and railroad, and the industrial power of the Union to back them. Doctrine was thus greatly expanded to include factors of time, space and logistics which were not possible in the campaigns of the past.

The relevance is that they would not have recognized Ypres.  A huge shift had happened, the likes of which had not been seen before (clearly in recorded history anyway) and have not been seen since.  The battlefield had changed on a fundamental level.

Alexander and Henry had logistics and communications and had to incorporate those things into their plans.  I think that Alexander grappled with time, space and logistics.  The scale and speed had changed, perhaps, but the principles may have held.  I would argue that you could brief them in ten minutes that the quartermasters now had access to really fast pack animals and they could adapt.  Their tactical adaptation to machine guns, trenches, real artillery and barbed wire, however, would probably not have been fast enough to survive.  The principles (if there truly are such things) had changed.  I grant that Alexander might have recognized Port Arthur in that he seemed to enjoy sieges.

My silly time travel is just to bring out the point that warfare trundled along for two thousand years while retaining a rather familiar form.  That form started to come apart around the turn of the 19th century and was completely gone by 1918.

Infanteer,

If "revolution" in this context means that people sit down and deliberately plan these things out then I would agree that there are no real revolutions in military affairs.  I have been using revolution simply to mean a radical change in the order of things.  Much of that was accidental, but the change was massive nonetheless.  I hate to use the expression "paradigm shift", but perhaps one could use that to look at what happened between 1870 and 1918.

Cheers!
 
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