What is a Veteran?

[Acorn]

This is where US and Canadian attitudes seem to part ways.

The Yanks consider anyone who served honourably in their Forces to be a Veteran.

We seem to consider only those who served in War to be so (probably in part due to the aspects of veterans' benefits legislation). However, we consider anyone who pitches up at Remembrance Day with a rack of gongs (the usual WWII rack of four-five) to be a Veteran, regardless of his service. Rightly so, I say. Yet, somehow, we think somone who served in the CF for, say, 25 years and never had a tour is not a Veteran? Perhaps not in the legal sense (i.e allowed legislated vet's benefits) but certainly we should consider the semantic sense.

The nature of the "teeth to tail" ratio means that the vast majority of those who we call Veteran (and who are entitled to WWII benefits) did not see combat. Yet we don't hesitate to allow them the "title."

Does one have to be shot, as Tess was, to be entitled to be called Veteran? What is a former member of the CF who dedicated many years of his life, and his family's stability, to the CF entitled to? The pension alone?

I used to be one of those inclined to refuse to think of myself as a Vet. My career has been unremarkable, I should think. I haven't been wounded, or even shot at (as far as I could tell - I was in the vicinity of the odd angry shot). Yeah, I'm a vet. I don't need a licence plate for my car, or any other visible symbols, other than the medals I have been awarded, including the CD, which I'm more proud of as days go by. But I am a Veteran. And so are most of you, whether you believe it or not.

You served. How many can truly say that?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Unless I'm mistaken, all those Emergency Services guys get a substantially better benefits package than we do.  They also make packets more on their T4 slips than us.  They undoubtedly deserve it.  As I said earlier, Wayne Gretzky is called a veteran of the NHL.  Most Emergency guys are called veteran officers, firefighters, etc.  The word vet in my vocabulary equals " done my time."  IMHO of course...

Off topic PS:  Why do Celine Dionne, Mike Meyers, and a bunch of others deserve an Order of Canada for getting rich?  Seems to me that "we who serve" make  substantially more of a contribution to promoting Canada overseas than these border jumpers....IMHO, again...flame away... ;D

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[axeman]

in my humble opinion

 

[pronto]

Hmmm Celine - I dunno - she bugs the livin' beejayzuz outta me, but I know Mike Myers is a HUGE Canada booster. He loves the place, thinks Toronto is pretty cool (I know, I know - let's not go there), and was a big tourism booster during the SARS thing. he went onto talk shows and took time to tell people to visit toronto, and wore toronto tee shirts, he gives money to canadian charities. I figure he deserves it.

Now, that warbling, yodelling, uluation thing Celine does - wow, annoying or what!

 

[patrick666]

*celine dion* :fifty:

Anyway,

I agree, I don't believe you need to see action to a veteran. I think putting the time in to support and protect your country and its citizens is more than enough. People have the misconstrued idea that to be a veteran you had to go in guns blazing and dodging bullets. Regardless if you're a clerk, cook, or infanteer... I think veteran status is a solemn pride that should not be handled.

(On another side note: I think the CF numbers are low because 50% of people in Canada still believe basic is like Full Metal Jacket, from my experiences)

Cheers

 

[Jim_Steed]

                              Some veterans bear visible signs of their
service...a missing limb, a jagged scar, a
certain look in the eye.

Others may carry the evidence inside them...a
pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel
in the leg...or perhaps another sort of inner
steel...the soul's ally forged in refinery
of adversity.

Except in parades, however, the men and women
who have kept Canada safe wear no badge or
emblem.

You can't tell a Vet just by looking. What is a
Vet?

He is the Cop on the beat who spent six months
in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day
making sure the armored personnel carriers
didn't run out of fuel.

He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior
is out weighed a hundred times in cosmic
scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near
the 38th parallel.

She or he is a nurse who fought against
futility and went to sleep sobbing every night
for one solid year in Vietnam.

He is the POW who went away one person and came
back another â “ or didn't come back at all.

He is the Drill Instructor who has
never seen combat but has saved countless lives
by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang
members into soldiers and teaching them to watch
each other's back.

He is the parade-riding Legionnaire who pins on
ribbons and medals with his prosthetic hand.

He is the career Quartermaster who watches the
ribbons and medals pass him by.

He is the anonymous hero in the Tomb of the Unknown
Soldier.. or whose presence at the CF National
Cemetery must forever preserve the
memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor
dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield
or in the ocean's sunless deep.

He is the old guy bagging groceries at the
supermarket â “ palsied now and aggravatingly slow
who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who
wishes all day long that his wife were still
alive to hold him when his nightmares come.

He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human
being â “ a person who offered some of his life's
most vital years in service of his country
and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would
not have to sacrifice theirs.

He is a Soldier, Sailor, Airman and a savior and a sword
against the darkness and is nothing more than the
finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the
finest, greatest nation ever known.

He is the beggar on the street corner, holding
up a piece of cardboard with the scribbling,
â Å“Help a Vet, HUNGRY!â ?

So remember, each time you see someone in uniform
who has served our country, just lean over and say THANK YOU. That's all most people need and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded.

Two little words that mean a lot. â Å“THANK YOUâ ?

Author Unknown

 

[Art Johnson]

This is where US and Canadian attitudes seem to part ways.

I don't need a licence plate for my car, or any other visible symbols, other than the medals I have been awarded, including the CD, which I'm more proud of as days go by. But I am a Veteran. And so are most of you, whether you believe it or not.

You served. How many can truly say that?

I don't need a license plate either but I have one. It is to remind the Civilians that we have Veterans. In the past two weeks I have conversed with two different young ladies and they were both surprised to know that we had Soldiers in Korea. They have never heard of Croatia or any of those other hell holes our lads served in.

I would advise any Veteran who is eligble to obtain a Veterans plate it arouses the young peoples curiosity.

 

[rocky1fac]

Jim Steed,
  You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.  Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy.
Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,

 

[Art Johnson]

Re only 15% of the men fired their weapon in battle. In the book Fields of Fire the author interviewed the man who supposedly made that statement who said that he never said that and further the author that quoted him had never ever spoken with him. In my experience the problem was the opposite we had a tough time trying to keep the men from firing when the company was being attacked.

 

[Gunner]

Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion

I don't know where you are getting your information from but your comments have been questionable on several threads now and it seems you are talking out of your ***.   PM on the way.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/dday/juno.html

QUICK FACTS:

1.1 million Canadians served in WWII, including 106,000 in the Royal Canadian Navy and 200,000 in the Royal Canadian Air Force


42,042 killed
54,414 wounded

D Day

14,000 Canadians landed on D-Day

450 jumped by parachute or landed by glider

10,000 sailors of the RCN were involved


340 killed
574 wounded
47 taken prisoner
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

During the first six days of the Normandy campaign, 1,017 Canadians died.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the end of the Normandy campaign, about 5,020 Canadians had been killed. About 5,400 Canadians are buried in Normandy.

In the two and a half months of the Normandy campaign, Allied casualities (killed, wounded and captured) totalled 210,000.

Canadian casualties totalled more than 18,000, including more than 5,000 dead. German casualties were 450,000.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Jim Steed,
   You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.   Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy.
Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,

They teach you how to write like that on a Staff Course?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Jim Steed,
  You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.  Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy.
Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,

As somebody once said in another  thread "BS and give it a rest."

 

[Slim]

Here is Slim, sans flags but with a number of thoughts to share...

You know if you were to mention to the Triple-Soy-Decaff-latte crowd that we'd actually had soldiers in combat later than WW2 they'd look at you like you had two heads...

The sad fact is that the average Canadian does not know or care whether we;

A. Have an army.
B. Maintain that army.
C. What that army does

I will use my cousin Katie as an example;

Katie is my cousin. She is a delight to be with. She is a 24 year old dancer who is struggling to "make it" in the Toronto entertainment scene. She works very hard at what she does and deserves to succeed.

I try and have coffee (if not dinner) with Katie at least once a month. When we get together the time is well spent and we usually wind up talking far into the evening.

In alot of ways Katie is a representative of a cros section of Canadian society today. Everything she knows about the military she has learned from me.

About 6 months ago I learned of a friend of mine who was killed while driving a Coyote in Bosnia. Having dinner with katie several days later I happened to mentioned this to her and the fact that I was upset about it.

Kate was stunned. "You mean to tell me that a Canadian person in the army died?!" she said, with a stunned look on her pretty young face. "But how did this happen, what was he doing for that to happen?! I didn't know our army goes places like that, don't the Americans do it for us...?!"

At first I was rather upset with Kate. After all she should know better right?

Wrong...

How could she when our own govt treates the CF like the dirty cousins locked in a closet until its election time...Then they trot out a few slogans, announce some meager funding and then send the CF back into the arms of obscurity again...

If you were to ask the average member of the Canadian public (provided you could pry them off of their cellphone) if we had any vets around today, they'd probably stop for a moment and then (after a very long pause) tell you about all the OLD MEN that come out of the woodwork on Rememberance Day.

Guys like Sgt (Retired) John Tessione of the 48th Highlanders, who I am lucky enough to call my friend, have not ever entered the collective Canadian conciousness...Even though he and his driver were wounded (John in the head!) and had to travel for hours by themselves before reaching help.

(for anyone who is interested the Iltis that John and his driver were in when this happened is displayed in the Canadian War Museum for all to see. I believe that there are also pics on another thread)

John is my age...Perhaps even a little younger...And, in my eyes, has earned the title of veteran (along with my respect)...As have anyone who has served during a conflict.

The average Canadian does not know much (if anything) about THEIR amred forces, and probably thinks that the money could be spent better...Like say Healthcare, than wasting it on a bunch of undereducated violent louts that don't have an education or even wear suites to work!

To cut a long diatribe short its the govt's responability to better educate the masses and stop treating the CF like a small retrded child that constantly whines for attention.

Rather treat and support her like the grownup she is...And give her the recognition she so richly deserves.

Rant ends

Slim

 

[CH1]

It's what I have said for years.  We are locked away in the dusty annuls of time, in the dark forgotten back pages of history books.

This is slowly changing, with thanks to all of the "younger" generations In the Cdn military.  My generation was more governed by our WW2 & Korean Vets.  We didn't say much outside of our own circles.

Cheers

 

[57Chevy]

                              Some veterans bear visible signs of their
service...a missing limb, a jagged scar, a
certain look in the eye.

Others may carry the evidence inside them...a
pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel
in the leg...or perhaps another sort of inner
steel...the soul's ally forged in refinery
of adversity.

Except in parades, however, the men and women
who have kept Canada safe wear no badge or
emblem.

You can't tell a Vet just by looking. What is a
Vet?

He is the Cop on the beat who spent six months
in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day
making sure the armored personnel carriers
didn't run out of fuel.

He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior
is out weighed a hundred times in cosmic
scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near
the 38th parallel.

She or he is a nurse who fought against
futility and went to sleep sobbing every night
for one solid year in Vietnam.

He is the POW who went away one person and came
back another â “ or didn't come back at all.

He is the Drill Instructor who has
never seen combat but has saved countless lives
by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang
members into soldiers and teaching them to watch
each other's back.

He is the parade-riding Legionnaire who pins on
ribbons and medals with his prosthetic hand.

He is the career Quartermaster who watches the
ribbons and medals pass him by.

He is the anonymous hero in the Tomb of the Unknown
Soldier.. or whose presence at the CF National
Cemetery must forever preserve the
memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor
dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield
or in the ocean's sunless deep.

He is the old guy bagging groceries at the
supermarket â “ palsied now and aggravatingly slow
who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who
wishes all day long that his wife were still
alive to hold him when his nightmares come.

He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human
being â “ a person who offered some of his life's
most vital years in service of his country
and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would
not have to sacrifice theirs.

He is a Soldier, Sailor, Airman and a savior and a sword
against the darkness and is nothing more than the
finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the
finest, greatest nation ever known.

He is the beggar on the street corner, holding
up a piece of cardboard with the scribbling,
â Å“Help a Vet, HUNGRY!â ?

So remember, each time you see someone in uniform
who has served our country, just lean over and say THANK YOU. That's all most people need and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded.

Two little words that mean a lot. â Å“THANK YOUâ ?

Author Unknown

And this is one good reason to have put all these veteran threads in one place. :nod:
It may be an old post but....... thanks for posting it Jim. iper:
Ex Coelis

 

[mover1]

Citizenship - This applies to all federal Public Service positions. Applications made by persons who are not Canadian citizens are accepted. However, if there are sufficient qualified applicants who are Canadian citizens, the selection will be confined to these applicants.

Appointments will be made in the following order:

1. Canadian Veteran
2. Widower or widow of a Canadian Veteran
3. Canadian citizen
4. Persons not belonging to the previous groups.


The Public Service Employment Act defines "veteran" as follows:

“veteran”
« ancien combattant »
“veteran” means, subject to subsection 2(1) of this Schedule, a person who

(a) during World War I was on active service overseas in the naval, army or air forces or who served on the high seas in a seagoing ship of war in the naval forces of His Majesty or of any of the Allies of His Majesty, and who has left that service with an honourable record or has been honourably discharged,
(b) during World War II was on active service
(i) in the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty or of any of His Majesty’s Allies and at the commencement of that active service was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or

(ii) in the naval, army or air forces of Canada, and, not being domiciled in Canada at the commencement of that active service, is a Canadian citizen,

and who, in the course of that service, performed duties outside of the Western Hemisphere, or on the high seas in a ship or other vessel service that was, at the time the person performed those duties, classed as “sea time” for the purpose of the advancement of naval ratings, or that would have been so classed had the ship or other vessel been in the service of the naval forces of Canada,

(c) during World War II served as a member of the Women’s Royal Naval Services or as a member of the South African Military Nursing Service outside of the Western Hemisphere and who, at the commencement of her service during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland,
(d) has been certified by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs as having been enrolled in Canada or Newfoundland by United Kingdom authorities for special duty during World War II in war areas outside of the Western Hemisphere, and who served outside of the Western Hemisphere, and at the time of enrolment was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or
(e) during World War II served outside of the Western Hemisphere with the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty raised in Canada or Newfoundland as a representative of Canadian Legion War Services, Inc., the National Council of the Young Men’s Christian Associations of Canada, Knights of Columbus Canadian Army Huts, or Salvation Army Canadian War Services, was authorized so to serve by the appropriate naval, army or air force authority and who, at the commencement of that service with those forces during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland;


This was the definition of a veteran given to me by the HR department of  the Federal Public service when I applied for a job this past Feb.

Thanks for your service.  But we don't recognize it

 

[mover1]

Gnr Morton

You lost me dude. :-\
WTF was your post about?

 

[OldSolduer]

I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.

I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea.

I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.

 

[Journeyman]

I believe this is the view most people hold......

Most people probably don't give much thought to it at all.  It's simply more evidence that the 'yellow ribbon/support the troops' sentiment was a mile wide and an inch deep. 

Merely history repeating itself -- peacetime: soldiers and dogs stay off the lawn.

 

[Jed]

I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.

I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea.

I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.

I think you are correct, Jim, on what the public perceives to be Veterans. After WWII and probably WWI the public most likely viewed their veterans as 20 or 30 somethings. This self imposed segregation of former serving personnel has been ongoing for a long time.

I myself feel I have earned my veteran license plate even though there are many who are older or younger with harder and longer or easier or shorter TI then myself.

This does not diminish my respect for those who served in WWII or Korea or whether or not they were a cook or combat arms.