Whats wrong with our army?

[bossi]

If CT's have been streamlined, and my rant is now obsolete, please disregard.

You'll love this:   I've lost track of how many guys I've met lately, who'd applied for CT but then ...

One was a guy who has graduated from law school and passed the bar admission exam ... but has been in limbo so long he may have changed his mind ...

Another was a guy who returned recently from Afghanistan ... but, you'll REALLY love this ... his RECRUITING medical expired (probably because they were making time while he was in freakin' Kabul), so ... he's reconsidering the CT ...

Yet another is a guy applying for Int - he's more than qualified, and my friends "in the know" say they'd take him tomorrow ... but ... somehow his file hasn't made it from the CFRC to the spooks at NDHQ ... and instead he got an offer for his present MOC first ... hmmm ...

I kinda wonder:   When MOC's are screaming for "reinforcements", isn't it odd that CT's are taking so long ...
(and, as an aside - when I say I don't understand, it's from the perspective of somebody who spent several years at RZHQ as an Assistant Zone PSO - and, I know one of the higher ups as a friend and as an excellent officer ... so I'm also voicing frustration from the perspective of the recruiting system - there are guys wearing the same colour uniforms as us, busting their butts to get more troops to the front ... but ... I dunno - it seems we are burdened with paper wars to the left and right ...)

Oh - I know!  Let's outsource recruiting to a crony of the Liberal Party who's got a commercial "office overload" type of business ... then, the Army will automatically become a happier place, since only the Party faithful will get in, and of course the whining will stop ... hmmm ... party members getting preferential treatment in the army ... why does that sound so familiar ... ?
(YES - THAT LAST PART IS FRICKIN' SARCASM!!!!!  Grrrr ... I'm going to the swimming pool ...)

 

[nULL]

People's lives change. While one's desire to join the forces may be strong for months, life goes on, independently. For instance, were I to get into the forces right now i would have to cut my hours back at work and drop a uni class of mine on thursday nights. I knew when I took the extra shifts and signed up for the class that there would be a potential timetable problem, but after months and months of waiting, I stopped factoring the forces into my short term planning. I mean, I spent last summer sitting on my *** because I had planned to be at BMQ - only wasn't.

EDIT: That aside though, they are trying to recruit me. Why should I fight them? When I watched Fahrenheit 9/11, I remember being amazed at how the Marine recruiters would actually hunt for recruits. 

 

[MdB]

pbi, as you I think Pieman stated pretty much the issue why the CF want to accelerate and optimize the recruiting process. The CF can't afford to lose any good candidates. It's too much a competitive job market we're in. To lose them because of the waiting is a dumb problem. On the other side, I don't think, the recruiting process is something you can't survive. I can understand someone who's 18-19 to be eager to get in though. BUT, we must mention that someone who really wants to get in waits and get through the process.

That said, recceguy mentionned that there was no problem back in the '70s, and considering it has become a way more time-effective process since, is this only the bottleneck of medical personnel or is it a really bigger problem we have here?

I like your propositions, but from my point of view (ie outside the military) it seems that the Forces are really too far streched to crank up the throughput of recruiting. As I see it, the army personnel is overworked between garrison duty, deployment, and training... and instructing. Even though we still have the infrastructure to accept more candidates than we do now, would it be true to say that we haven't enough personnel put in CFRCs, medical, CFLRS, CIC, etc. to reduce that waiting? Because after all, it's not only a matter of checking medical status, interview running, etc., but also to place those canditates in the right courses and right course series (infantry, pilot, MP, welder, etc).

Another thing not to forget is that the process has probably higher standards than in the '70s, but for the minimum physical requirements. But I can't compare since I don't have any infos on that.

 

[a_majoor]

Few sad observations:

When I joined in 81, I had three pieces of paper to sign. Today's recruit has a mountain of forms.

This brigade looses so many potential recruits due to the inefficient and slow system. If we were to actually get everyone who walked in the door (before they slam the door on the way out in frustration), the attrition problem would be ended and the Brigade would be growing.

IF we did get all those recruits, there would be a big bottleneck in the training system (not enough MCpl's and Sgt's to train them), and the supply system (We would have a hard time dressing them, much less equipping them with rifles, radios and machineguns to train with.)

The CF did a big recruiting drive just a few years ago in an attempt to hale the death spiral (at one point it was projected the CF would have only @ 46,000 effective strength). Recruiting shot up and lots of people were stuffed into the pipeline, only to end up in "holding battalions" in Borden wainting a year or more for their courses to start.

The best solution would be to "throttle down" the number of actual recruits to what the system could handle.

 

[Tracker]

Lets figure out where the wait is.   An applicant has to fill out the "mountains of forms" correctly.   An application form and screening and consent form are hardly mountains.   An ROTP applicant has one more form to add to this mountain.   An applicant who has less than ten years residency in Canada can add another form to his mountain.   Maybe the school system has failed us because half the applications I see are filled out wrong or are illegible and have to be redone.

If you have former service, a verification is done (VFS).   All processing stops until we find your Med Docs and service record.   An easy way around this is to ensure that you go on the SRR list when you release.

Next, the applicant is booked for an aptitude test (CFAT).   In Toronto we have the capacity to test less than 20 applicants a day.   An applicant must meet a minimun score to be able to go on.   Some people have no problem with the CFAT, some tube it.   If an applicant tubes the CFAT, they must wait three months to rewrite, all processing stops until the applicant meets the min score, it used to be one year.   Again, it must be the school system because we test language and math at a grade ten level.

If an applicant has been in Canada less than ten years they require a Pre- Secure.   This is done to see if the applicant can obtain a Level 1 security clearance.   The CF does not conduct this procedure, DPM SEC does.   This procedure can actually take years, but would you want to be in a trench with someone who has a questionable background?   Again, all processing stops until the applicant is granted level 1.   If we bypass this and enroll an applicant because he might become discouraged and give up, we might find later, after training that he is unable to obtain a level 1 clearance and is unemployable.   We can blame world events for this increase in security.

The next step is the Canadian Forces Physical Fitness Test, (CFPFT).   An applicant must meet a minimum score, if not they must go away and come back to try again.   All processing stops until the applicant can pass the CFPFT.   I don't know who to blame for this, how about Nintendo or computers.

Next, a criminal record name check (CRNC) is done.   All kinds of things may surface here, unpaid parking tickets that have gone to collection, debts that gone to collection, that sort of thing will stop processing until you sort it out and satisfy the CF that it will never happen again.

The medical is done next, this subject has been beaten to death.   If you have a medical problem, we don't need you to be a liability because of it, life in the CF is hazardous enough.   Thats as far as I'm going with this point, I'm not a medical professional.

The interview is next.   The Military Career Councillor (MCC) who conducts your interview has a set of guidelines that must be followed and a series of questions that must be asked.   You might not be suitable for the CF or the occupation you have chosen because of your answers.   This is not an uncommon way of screening applicants, most big businesses will require you to do an interview.   The MCC may find you temporarily unsuitable and place a time restriction on you,(little johnny is a nutcase with no social skills, bring file forward in six months to see if his situation has changed).   Processing stops until you are found to be suitable.

Now the waiting game begins, your file goes to review boards, most sit twice a year to select applicants.   Some people score low throughout the application process and are never selected.   Thats a fact of life, thats what selection is all about, not everyone gets an offer and you might have to wait for several review boards before they get to you.

If you don't agree with this process or any of the steps, you can always talk with your Member of Parliament.   If your MP feels that you have a legit complaint, they will talk with the Minister of National Defence who may launch a Ministerial Inquiry and investigate the process to see if your treatment was within the policies laid out for CF Recruitment.

These policies are not set by CFRC's or CFRG and complaining about or to CFRC or CFRG will get little results.

 

[pbi]

I like your propositions, but from my point of view (ie outside the military) it seems that the Forces are really too far streched to crank up the throughput of recruiting. As I see it, the army personnel is overworked between garrison duty, deployment, and training... and instructing. Even though we still have the infrastructure to accept more candidates than we do now, would it be true to say that we haven't enough personnel put in CFRCs, medical, CFLRS, CIC, etc. to reduce that waiting? Because after all, it's not only a matter of checking medical status, interview running, etc., but also to place those canditates in the right courses and right course series (infantry, pilot, MP, welder, etc).

Another thing not to forget is that the process has probably higher standards than in the '70s, but for the minimum physical requirements. But I can't compare since I don't have any infos on that.

And therein lies the conundrum: we can't get bigger, faster until we get bigger. Recruiting work is traditionally done by NCOs and officers, the same people who are in short supply and high demand as leaders in units and as instructor cadres in schools and ATCs. We cannot just fill the gaps "willy nilly" with anybody, because will end up with utterly unsuitable people in the CFRCs. Believe me: we have been through an episode of that with one of the CFRC Dets in our Bde AO and it was quite painful. The damage that incompetents or malcontents dumped  in such  positions can do must be seen to be believed....

Perhaps bringing individuals off the SRR might provide the ability to increase the capacity to process all of the documentation, but the problem that has been very clearly identified to 38 CBG by CFRG in the past is the medical bottleneck at Borden. Why medical review cannot be contracted out escapes me: what do we plan to do in an emergency? I mean....we have thought that out, right....it's in the "Mobilization Plan".....isn't it? Or are we just going to go chasing madly after the same little pool of officers and NCOs that everybody and his dog will be chasing after at the same time?

Cheers.

 

[pbi]

These policies are not set by CFRC's or CFRG and complaining about or to CFRC or CFRG will get little results

OK.....recommended course of action is?

Cheers.

 

[arctictern]

If you can't beat them, join them.

 

[PARAMEDIC]

whats wrong with our army ...nothing

but the question should be whats wrong with the people governing our army. The beaurcrats and the bs red tape that goes along with every decision our army tries to make. The government has become to lax and lathargic  in trying to keep its citizens safe, theyy have been lulled into a false sense of security that our nation cannot be attack on home turf.....sort of post 911 american mentaliity, It would be a rude awakening for us, if history repeated itself on us and also a major shame that we needed an event that dramatic for our government to start splurigng on our army.( yeah economic situations and all things have been taken into consideration)

This goodwill, salvation army type of mentality on buying used equipment has got to go.

hey i just woke up saw the post and started to fire away, so spelling grammar and niity details are out the window ;D
I will review this post when I actually wake up.. after a good cup of Timmy's

 

[MdB]

And therein lies the conundrum: we can't get bigger, faster until we get bigger. Recruiting work is traditionally done by NCOs and officers, the same people who are in short supply and high demand as leaders in units and as instructor cadres in schools and ATCs.

I heard the Fed Gov't is trying to not enter new missions in the next 2 years that would need a lot of personnel deployed in order to rectify the situation, which is we haven't enough people now to train enough officer candidates and recruits just to level the problem (not fall under 50k personnel). At least, we would have enough personnel not in a pre-deployment/deployment/post-deployment process. As I read, CF are facing a big attrition problem and just recruiting around 5000 (and that's optimistic) new members won't be enough in the next years due to retirements. So, here's another problem unfolded. On one side, it's now mandatory to recruit more to block the attrition. On the other, we must face reality that the CF have suffered 10 years of cut backs during the 90s and now the problems are blatant and that now the Fed Gov't is obliged let a brake to the CF concerning deployments if they want to rectify this situation.

I really think that's the context we're in. That including systemic problem like not enough MCC, medical personnel to process the medical tests, and instructing personnel.

Hmm, let's stay positive, the least we can say.

 

[DMOS]

I totally disagree with this. Making young, energetic, people with a drive for success are going to have more than just the Army as an opportunity in their life. Do you really think that a person who has a lot of options is going to sit around and just wait for the CF to process their forms?

'No sorry, I can't take a 3 year contract to judge supermodel bathing suit contests....my CF application is in and I am waiting...could be any year now.'

Also, people who are recent graduates from university and want to enter a DEO program often have a high debt load. They simply have to get into a career that makes money quickly, and like any career that takes a commitment. If one takes a good job for a large company and simply walks away from it, that is very irresponsible, and they will certainly have a hard time getting a job in that field again. They simply cannot afford to sit around and wait for the CF.

I'm in this exact situation.  While somewhat patiently waiting for the board to sit processing my application... I have a civilian offer to table myself now.  I know I'd like very much to join in the DEO, and put my eng degree to what I consider a real use.  But honestly, with OSAP and Queen's kicking down my door looking for money, the question is more "can I afford to wait for them, instead of making money elsewhere?".  Maybe it's partly my fault for not doing my app while still in school, but instead weighed my options after I had recovered from exams and enjoyed for a few weeks the fact that I had finally completed my degree.  As was said in the quote above, it's financially irresponsible to turn down a civilian position that's going to pay me more and start now, than wait for the CF to get their act in gear and tell me "yes" or "no" and pull me out of limbo.  I just hope I can put off telling the civillian position my decision till after this board meets...

 

[Northern Touch]

Ok, it was touched upon breifly, but does anybody know what the specific cause for the long wait on CT's?

I mean, If i was considering goign regs and needed a CT, from people on this board and from what i've heard, it could take almost 8 months or even longer.  I don't know the process, but it seems dismall to me that a trained soldier needs 8 months to go from Res. to Regs.  That is WAY too much time, especialyl when a lot of people are comming out of school and can find jobs a lot easier and quicker then 8 months, which pay more as well.  Of course, if someone wanted the army, they would wait it out, but everyone can get frustrated and everyone can get annoyed with the system and just say "fuck it". 

So can someone explain or maybe enlighten me as to why it can take longer to switch a trained soldier from Reg to Res. then to hire a completely untrained civilian?

 

[NavyGrunt]

Because we are not really a concern. Our files are on the back burner because we are already in the military and we dont "increase the numbers". I'm already on month 9 and I have another 6 to go....

 

[Northern Touch]

Because we are not really a concern. Our files are on the back burner because we are already in the military and we dont "increase the numbers". I'm already on month 9 and I have another 6 to go....

Ya, but we sure "decrease training costs" and add another number to the Reg Force.

 

[Tracker]

When you apply for a component transfer, your unit orderly room has to get your paperwork to a CFRC.  You have just become their lowest priority because you are a lost number to them.  They have paid for your training up to that date and don't want to lose you from their effective strength.  Once (if) your paperwork reaches the CFRC, you will have to go through the same process (med, pt, interview) as you did before.