What's Wrong with University Campuses Today?

[McG]

This might not be fully on-topic, but could you explain what you are referring to about Ohio State?

Vietnam war peace rally.
National Guard called to maintain order.
protesters throw rocks.
guardsmen fall back to avoid escallation.
one guardsmen opens fire (paniced?).
other guardsmen do same.
4 dead protestors.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Quote,
It appears you've read what you wanted to hear, not what was written. I'll thank you to refrain from doing it again.

Actually I just went back and read your post and it READS exactly like Torlyn stated, perhaps your wording is suspect?

First off, I don't see how Concordia "allowed" the riot to take place, as someone claimed. A protest turned into a riot - protest supervision is the job of the police, not part-time security guards and university staff. What were they supposed to do - disperse the riot with 20 unarmed security guards? That's the job of the cops, which they did after things went riotous.

How so? I stated that a protest turned into a riot - something the police deal with, not the university. I asked a rhetorical question as to whether the university was supposed to have dispersed the riot with their security people to illustrate the absurdity of such a notion. Then I stated that the police eventually came in and dispersed the riot. Where do I state no police were present (I can specifically recall riot cops standing in a cordon in front of the glass windows of the Hall building just before it went riotous)? All I can draw from such interpretations vis a vis the issue is that it's being argued that the university should have employed the police to disperse the riot. As I'm sure everyone here knows, the university doesn't command the police so I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume this was not the implication being made.

Where was I attempting to defend the university's punitive actions (or lack thereof) after the riot? Nowhere do I discuss anything but the riot and the university's inability to intervene therein, which is completely different from their efforts to sanction participants afterwards.

As for the latter half of the post, I stated that I find people's "real world" brainfarts to be baseless. The implications in such statements are that those in academia are necessarily ignorant or naive where the "real world" is concerned. I stated that I found people outside academia to be far more ignorant of the "real world" and myopic insofar as their considerations are lacking in scope. Nowhere did I say that everyone not in university is necessarily ignorant or myopic, simply that in my experience the number is higher outside universities than within.

Quote,
blame the rioters or, at worst, the police - not the univsersity.

...the rioters, yes, but the police?......what should they have done?...pulled an Ohio State?

Of course the rioters, and no, I don't believe the police are to blame but it seems people are looking for some institutional scapegoat here and the only other party which could be constituent thereof is the police since the university cannot logically have been expected to do anything to stop the riot.

 

[Slim]

the university doesn't command the police

As the university is private property the police would have to waite to be asked on up to a certain point...When its apparent that a criminal act is about to take place they would then be able to step in and act, but not until...

  those in academia are necessarily ignorant or naive where the "real world" is concerned. I stated that I found people outside academia to be far more ignorant of the "real world" and myopic insofar as their considerations are lacking in scope. Nowhere did I say that everyone not in university is necessarily ignorant or myopic, simply that in my experience the number is higher outside universities than within.

I don't for a moment believe that those inside the hollowed halls of education are ignorant of what's going on outside. I think they know full well and use whats happening outside to further their own form of policy-making. Which I believe is NOT in the best interest of the country or the west.

...And I further delicately enquire where exactly you have accumulatedthe life-experience to be able to make these observations about the realistic outlook of academia? Bearing in mind that the people you're conversing with most assuredly have...

Slim

 

[Torlyn]

What's more interesting is your inability to comprehend what you've read (university educated, eh? Suspect.) Where did I accuse people who didn't go to university for being ignorant or myopic? I said that I found the incidence of myopia and ignorance outside universities greater than within them - wherein is the accusation that all non-academics are myopic and ignorant?. It appears you've read what you wanted to hear, not what was written. I'll thank you to refrain from doing it again. 

If you're going to question my education, try and do it on a point regarding my actual education, not your inability to articulate your thoughts coherently.  A simple "that's not what I meant, this is what I meant" would have sufficed without the sarcasm.  Clarity, my good man.  Seek it out, it will serve thee well.

In regards to your first post, you said "A protest turned into a riot - protest supervision is the job of the police, not part-time security guards and university staff. What were they supposed to do - disperse the riot with 20 unarmed security guards?" Implying that cops were not present.  As it appears that you are the only one that doesn't seem to understand how you were interpreted, perhaps you *might* not be right?  I know this may shock someone of your vaunted intelligence, but the potential is there.  So, instead of going off half-cocked, maybe you should consider that you may have been misunderstood.

Also, you stated "I worked for years before I went to university".  So, as you are an Infantry Officer Cadet (congrats, BTW) it is apparent that you have a 4 year degree from a university.  And worked for years before going to university.  And you're 23.  I'm either questioning the veracity of your profile, your math skills, or that you may not be telling the truth.  I suppose the chance is there that you graduated high school early.  Care to enlighten?

And the "I find people far more myopic, intolerant, and ignorant outside universities than within them."  I'd love you to re-word that so it isn't offensive to those that haven't gone to university.  I wonder how many of the troops you will be commanding will have post-secondary education...  :

On another point, I remember right after the Waco incident seeing Texas 1 WACO 0...  Ah, bumperstickers...

T

[EDIT] Pick your battles pick your battles... 
[re-edit] Sigh...  Bograt, I need to listen to ya better. 

 

[Glorified Ape]

As the university is private property the police would have to waite to be asked on up to a certain point...When its apparent that a criminal act is about to take place they would then be able to step in and act, but not until...

The riot took place outside, originally, then proceded inside. Concordia already had a police presence, as it does with every controversial speaking engagement or event likely to bring protesters (meaning just about anything that isn't concerning a conference on which urinal pucks to put in the bathrooms). The university could do nothing to prevent the riot - the cops can and did.

I don't for a moment believe that those inside the hollowed halls of education are ignorant of what's going on outside. I think they know full well and use whats happening outside to further their own form of policy-making. Which I believe is NOT in the best interest of the country or the west.

...And I further delicately enquire where exactly you have accumulatedthe life-experience to be able to make these observations about the realistic outlook of academia? Bearing in mind that the people you're conversing with most assuredly have...

Mmm.. depends on if they have the power to influence policy, I guess. What policy-making do you specifically object to, since just about every type of policy, from neo-marxism to neo-liberalism, is advanced by the respective sectors of academia?

As for where I draw my observations from - my experiences with academics and students, my experiences with non-academics, etc. I thought that would be evident. As I said, my observations are my own and I draw my opinions from my own experience and represent them as such. If others' experiences differ, so be it. I'm no more inclined to believe theirs as they are to believe mine, nor would I attempt to convince them to do otherwise, though I find those preaching the incompatibility of "the real world" and academia to be more than willing to.

If you're going to question my education, try and do it on a point regarding my actual education, not your inability to articulate your thoughts coherently.  A simple "that's not what I meant, this is what I meant" would have sufficed without the sarcasm.  Clarity, my good man.  Seek it out, it will serve thee well.

I'm not sure where I was unclear, but so be it. I suppose ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder, though one might recommend you seek clarity where you perceive none before drawing conclusions.

In regards to your first post, you said "A protest turned into a riot - protest supervision is the job of the police, not part-time security guards and university staff. What were they supposed to do - disperse the riot with 20 unarmed security guards?" Implying that cops were not present.

How is that stating the police were absent? The only enforcement (if you can use such a word) capacity the university has is its security force - wholly inappropriate for intervening in riots. To say the university is responsible for allowing the riot, then, is to imply that it should have used its security guards to disperse it, an absurdity requiring no further reflection. There are no other means by which it could have even attempted doing so. The police dispersed the riot, independent of the university's preference, request, or command. Since I didn't mention the police you seem to feel I assumed them absent, which is wholely inaccurate. When considering the university's options regarding dispersion of the riot, the police are a non-factor since the university has no power or control over them, and I treated the situation as such.

As it appears that you are the only one that doesn't seem to understand how you were interpreted, perhaps you *might* not be right?  I know this may shock someone of your vaunted intelligence, but the potential is there.  So, instead of going off half-cocked, maybe you should consider that you may have been misunderstood.

I have no doubt that I was misunderstood. My doubt lies in the assigning of responsibility therefor.

Also, you stated "I worked for years before I went to university".  So, as you are an Infantry Officer Cadet (congrats, BTW) it is apparent that you have a 4 year degree from a university.  And worked for years before going to university.  And you're 23.  I'm either questioning the veracity of your profile, your math skills, or that you may not be telling the truth.  I suppose the chance is there that you graduated high school early.  Care to enlighten?

Not at all. You're mistaken, though - I do not have a 4 year degree (that's coming), but am an Infantry Ocdt. (thank you) still obtaining my degree (in 3rd year now) on the CF's tab. I graduated HS at the normal age for Ontario (19) and worked for a couple years at menial positions, waiting for my CF application ban to expire (resultant from idiotic honesty during the "which drugs have you done" segment of the interview) then, after a renewed ban due to policy change, decided I'd go to university in Montreal (Concordia) and after working sh*t summer jobs I decided I'd reapply to the military and get them to foot the bill for my remaining 2 years while doing what I'd initially planned to do anyways.

19+2(post-HS work)=21        21+2(uni)=23

And the "I find people far more myopic, intolerant, and ignorant outside universities than within them."  I'd love you to re-word that so it isn't offensive to those that haven't gone to university.  I wonder how many of the troops you will be commanding will have post-secondary education...  :

Lets see - *ahem* - I have found the number of myopic, intolerant, and ignorant people outside universities to be greater than the number within them.
Does that do it? Seems to me like I just rephrased my original statement with little effect. Perhaps the issue is the oversensitivity of others? Given the negative correlation between education and racial/religious/sexual intolerance (if you really want the stats and relationships on this, I can get them) this isn't exactly a controversial statement (except for the "myopic" part, possibly).


[EDIT] Pick your battles pick your battles... 

Gee, funny you should say that....

 

[Slim]

As for where I draw my observations from - my experiences with academics and students, my experiences with non-academics, etc. I thought that would be evident. As I said, my observations are my own and I draw my opinions from my own experience and represent them as such. If others' experiences differ, so be it. I'm no more inclined to believe theirs as they are to believe mine, nor would I attempt to convince them to do otherwise, though I find those preaching the incompatibility of "the real world" and academia to be more than willing to.

Sorry bud,

I have a hard time believing that a 23 year old officer cadet has some sort of mythical worldly experience in all the ways of society. You should be in learn and be quite mode, not preach mode. Or I guaruntee that the NCO's who are assigned to teach you will have a field day with the OCDT who KNOWS it all.

Slim

 

[48Highlander]

I'm not sure where I was unclear, but so be it. I suppose ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder, though one might recommend you seek clarity where you perceive none before drawing conclusions.

Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack.  Listen, if you're going to say anything, it generaly pays to make yourself clear.  Otherwise you may as well just do us a favor and shut the f*** up.  I beleive it's even in the rules of conduct for the site.  Ambiguous and easily misunderstood statements only degenerate into flame-wars, they don't accomplish anything constructive.  I'd suggest you modify your speech accordingly in the future.

 

[McG]

I'm not sure where I was unclear, but so be it. I suppose ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder, though one might recommend you seek clarity where you perceive none before drawing conclusions.

There is a principle of leadership that puts the onus on your end to ensure people on the receiving end understand your message.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Sorry bud,

I have a hard time believing that a 23 year old officer cadet has some sort of mythical worldly experience in all the ways of society. You should be in learn and be quite mode, not preach mode. Or I guaruntee that the NCO's who are assigned to teach you will have a field day with the OCDT who KNOWS it all.

Slim

No problem, bud, don't worry about it, pal.

Where did I claim mythical worldly experience? I stated my experience - it's entirely up to you how much credit you give it.

As for "quite" mode, I guess you're not a big fan of the whole "dialogue" thing, eh? I listen to the NCO's just fine - they sure as hell know better than me about whatever it is they're teaching me. My stating that, in my experience, "relationship A is like this", is not incompatible with that. Considering your confirmation of the validity of my empirical conclusions, one has to wonder why you're still even on the topic?

Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack.  Listen, if you're going to say anything, it generaly pays to make yourself clear.  Otherwise you may as well just do us a favor and shut the f*** up.  I beleive it's even in the rules of conduct for the site.  Ambiguous and easily misunderstood statements only degenerate into flame-wars, they don't accomplish anything constructive.  I'd suggest you modify your speech accordingly in the future.

It's unfortunate my statements were perceived as unclear.

As for conduct, would this be what you're referring to:

You will not post any material which is knowingly false.

?

If so, I believe I'm faaaarrrrr within such a rule.

There is a principle of leadership that puts the onus on your end to ensure people on the receiving end understand your message.

Yes, pertaining to orders. Should I ever hold my O group on the site, I'll ensure everything I've said has been explicitly understood by everyone. 

 

[Slim]

I think we're all rather sick of this. You're just another in a long line of people who come here looking to tell the BTDT's what the world is made of.

I don't normally do this but I am going to ask the relevant Mod to lock this thread. Its not dialog and friendly discussion anymore. You're just one-upping everyone. I'v had enough.

Slim

 

[Glorified Ape]

I think we're all rather sick of this. You're just another in a long line of people who come here looking to tell the BTDT's what the world is made of.

I don't normally do this but I am going to ask the relevant Mod to lock this thread. Its not dialog and friendly discussion anymore. You're just one-upping everyone. I'v had enough.

Slim

I'm not sure how to reply to this without appearing to be trying to "one up" you. I have no desire (nor did I ever) to do so, it's futile. I came here (the board, not this forum) to read what the experienced NCO's/officers have to say on military topics so I could maybe glean some insights to help me do my future job better. As it is, this is a politics forum and as such is necessarily going to consist of subjective statements and argument (which is good).

Trust me, where the military is concerned I show all deference to everyone since, at this point, a private outranks me and has more experience. As for politics, unless duration of life is an indicator of a valid opinion, we're all entitled to our opinions.

I'll refrain from posting in this thread, if you'd prefer, so people could continue discussing the topic without the side-tracking this entire fiasco has achieved.

 

[Infanteer]

:boring:

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Oh, Yea!      :boring: :boring: