When did batmen fall out of use?

[a_majoor]

I am staying in the N lines in Pet, and the age of the building is evident in the sign on the laundry room door: "Batmen's room"

Evidently the doors have neither been replaced or even painted in quite some time, but this leads to the question; when did the practice of having a Batman end in the Canadian forces?

 

[aesop081]

My question would have been "How much lead is in this paint ?"

 

[PMedMoe]

My question would have been "How much lead is in this paint ?"

Or, how many layers of paint.  ;D

 

[Old Sweat]

I can't give you a definitive answer, but a friend on mine had one as a battalion commander in the early '80s. However the title batman/driver used to appear on establishments post-Korea. When I was a second lieutenant in Gagetown circa 1961-1962, I had a batman for a short period (I paid him $5.00 a week out of my $185.00 or so a month net.) This lasted until we got a new BC who lived in and noticed him. At which point I lost him, and being a product of the lower middle class at best, I decided I could look after myself.

Having rambled through the issue while I collected my thoughts, I think they offically disappeared in the early sixties, and integration would have done away with the practice. My suspicion is that it survived in infantry battalions and perhaps elsewhere after that. In the bad old days it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I am staying in the N lines in Pet, and the age of the building is evident in the sign on the laundry room door: "Batmen's room"

Evidently the doors have neither been replaced or even painted in quite some time, but this leads to the question; when did the practice of having a Batman end in the Canadian forces?

I still had one, as a junior officer, in an infantry battalion in North Germany, in 1969 ~ when I returned to regimental duty in the mid 1970s, as a field officer, I still had one, but I was a CO. I still had a batman/driver (for my 'office'/caravan) as a major unit CO in 1978-81 but there were none for any of my officers. I'm afraid that's a 10 year time frame but it's the best I can do.



Edit: to add infantry battalion/North Germany to support what Old Sweat said - it seemed to be a unit by unit thing.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Fine, I'll ask...

I've Googled the frig out of "batmen"....No, I don't mean "batman"...thanks anyways, Google.

What/who are is/the Batmen?

(I feel like I'm gettin' punked.......oh well)

Won't be the first time if stepped on it.
HS

 

[mariomike]

What/who are is/the Batmen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29

Yup...did it again....continuing an excellent record of ignorance.

Thought the "wikipedia" was about Batman...."the Batman".....
Not "batmen".

Thanks, MM.

 

[cavalryman]

The Commander 4CMBG in the late '80s (a BGen at the time) had a batman, who was unofficially known as such.  Can't remember what he was on the establishment, but he was provided by an un-named inf batallion in Lahr.

 

[OldTanker]

When I arrived in the Strathcona's in 1975 they were gone. I seem to remember hearing there were batmen earlier in the decade, not one per officer, but one to "bat" for a number of the living in officers. But that's a hazy memory.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

In the Navy, they disappeared on July 3rd, 1970 - when HMCS BONAVENTURE decommissioned.

Batmen was the term used to designate the Landing Signal Officers, even if by the time Bonnie decommissioned they were using landing mirror sights instead of "bats" to land the planes.

Sorry, you asked your question in a general military history forum not Army specific, so I could not resist.

 

[Greymatters]

My suspicion is that it survived in infantry battalions and perhaps elsewhere after that. In the bad old days it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology. 

Ive never heard that explanation before - hard to imagine a batman learning about how to be an officer when he's polishing boots and cleaning uniforms.

The batmen was basically the equivalent of a valet, a personal servant whose duties included boot polisher, room maintainer, uniform cleaner, errand runner, field cook, chaffeur, and whatever else he was needed for.  The position was created due to many of the aristocracy who joined the military wanting to have a personal servant like they had when they were civilians (with the bonus of the military paying for the servant).

Although there are better sources, I'll refer to the Wikipedia one out of laziness to support this definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)

 

[Franko]

We had a Brit exchange Officer a while ago ask on a Sqn parade "Who would like to be my Batman?"

The SSM summed him up.

Good riddance to an archaic "privilege" IMHO.

Regards

 

[Michael OLeary]

From the 1930s:

During the winters, we had the various schools of Militia Officer training. Here again. Fort York was the main venue. One of the games was to teach them drill, company to battalion. For this game, we soldiers with long ropes became a full unit. The fun was when they were passing out. If the officer was a good egg (nice to his batman, etc) we executed the drill movement he was supposed to have ordered. If he was not in our good books, we did exactly what he ordered, chaos! A part of their education was how to conduct an Orderly Room parade. Again, we were the guinea pigs, and were marched in to the Company Commander with various dreamed up charges, supplications or complaints.

A 1950s viewpoint:

Bearing in mind that a rifle company walked to their destination unless time and space dictated they would be loaded into the back of a 2 1/2 ton truck for the luxury of a ride. I recall that 11 Platoon had one seemingly dedicated "deuce and a half" for general purposes and a 3/4 ton which was used mainly for stores and re-supply, by the platoon sergeant. Platoon weapons were, a 9mm Browning pistol was carried by the platoon commander, 9mm Stens carried by the three section corporals and the platoon commander's batman/signaller, three .303 cal BREN light machine guns carried by the three section Bren gunners and the rest of the platoon carried the .303 calibre Lee Enfield bolt action rifle.

And early 1960s:

The platoon nominally contained 35 men -- platoon commander, platoon sergeant, signaller, batman and runner, and three sections of 10 men, commanded by a corporal -- but no platoon commander ever had all 35 available at the same time.

 

[Old Sweat]

Ive never heard that explanation before - hard to imagine a batman learning about how to be an officer when he's polishing boots and cleaning uniforms.

The batmen was basically the equivalent of a valet, a personal servant whose duties included boot polisher, room maintainer, uniform cleaner, errand runner, field cook, chaffeur, and whatever else he was needed for.  The position was created due to many of the aristocracy who joined the military wanting to have a personal servant like they had when they were civilians (with the bonus of the military paying for the servant).

Although there are better sources, I'll refer to the Wikipedia one out of laziness to support this definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)

Your second and third paragraphs are or were quite true in the Victorian era and before and in garrison up to 40 or 50 years ago. For example I was quite astounded to find how many members of the rifle companies in South Africa were lost to the battalion because they were detailed as servants and grooms for officers attached for instructional purposes as well as some of the hangers on like Sam Hughes, the future MND, or Major Denison, who managed to get a staff job in Lord Roberts' headquarters rather than stay as the unit QM.

However, in an infantry platoon in the field the batman accompanied the officer on recces, acting as his bodyguard and learning the battle procedure as he went along. I remember as an officer cadet being taught that on Phase One.

 

[Michael OLeary]

A tongue in chhek lok at the role of the Batman.

Advice to the Officers of the British Army with the addition of some hints to the drummer and private soldier
Chapter XVII - To the Private Soldier

If you are batman to an officer, your perquisites are certain. Sell half the forage to the sutlers who keep horses or asses: if they don't pay you in money, they will in gin. As a Christian is more worthy than a beast, it is better your master's horses should want than you.

 

[Journeyman]

..... it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology.

I can see how that might be a useful instructional technique....one may even say, a cunning plan.  ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Senior NCO's role in choosing the right man:

The Officer and Fighting Efficiency (1940)

v.    Arrange to meet the senior N.C.O. If he is an old soldier, he may be able to help you. Go through the orders of the move with him.

vi.    Ask him to pick you out a suitable man for your batman. He can mark your baggage and look after it during the journey.

 

[Greymatters]

Your second and third paragraphs are or were quite true in the Victorian era and before and in garrison up to 40 or 50 years ago. 

Is your experience in the use of batmen in Canada? It would have been different from their use in Europe or in the field.  My UK friends who I talked about this with were of the opinion that nothing much had changed since Wellington when it came to batmen.  Perhaps it depended on who the officer was and how they used their batmen?

 

[Old Sweat]

My experience was in the Canadian army, with some exposure to the British army in Germany in the sixties. While we tended to have an egalitarian attitude, the Brits - and they were extremely class conscious back then - felt it was right and proper that the lower classes served their social betters. I believe that this extended to using troops as house cleaners and to do the grocery shopping, at least in certain regiments/corps. It would have been unheard of for a Brit officer to have a conversation with one of the mess staff, except to correct a fault, real or perceived. (No slur to The Royals intended by the use of the term.) I recall many conversations between living in Canadian officers and members of the mess staff about sports, cars, housing, the weather, whatever, with no crossing of the discipline line. Now there were exceptions on both sides, and I was disgusted by a Canadian officer of another regiment in his own mess calling the bar man "slave." However, this was the general rule.