Where do the empty mags go?

[westie47]

That's why there are Emergency Reolads and Tactical Reloads.....You choose which one you use, when.

 

[Armymedic]

Not often I get a chance to correct or improve wpns drills shown by I6, so I will take this opportunity. My suggestions are in bold.

Also, retaining your own mags may be a luxury, but if you are passing over someone else's empty on the ground, and have time, you should pick it up.

Retaining empty mags is a luxury.

Reloads are broken down into two types -- Tactical and Emergency.

Emergency Mag Changes: conducted under fire when you run out of ammo -- bolt locked back.
  1) press mag release button, rotate weapon slightly inward so that mag housing opening can be seen. This rotation will also help in removing empty mag from weapon Drop empty - at the same time your weak side hand is bringing a new mag up.
  2) Insert mag - push pull and Hit bolt catch with the weak hand release bolt by working the cocking handle
  3) Keep shooting

Tactical Mag Changes: not immediately underfire - some ammo left in mag - but you think a change is a good idea.
   1) weak hand bring up new mag and place it at a 90 to the old mag
  2) remove old mag - rotate hand and place new mag on - push and pull
some guys like to run the bolt to ensure they still have a round in the chamber (and lose it if there was one) -- other press check.
   3) retain partial mag in dump pouch.

* ONLY FULL MAGS GO BACK INTO POUCHES
Partials go in the dumper.

** IF you have time - empties can be retained- either by having a buddy jam them in your day pack or you can put them in a pocket.
dont use the dumper - since if you need a mag out of the dumper - and you get an empty yoru screwed...

 

[The Bread Guy]

    That and the fact that they now issue more then two magazines. I can still remember a Warrent wandering around looking quite confused and muttering "Why would anyone need more then two magazines?"(pre C-7)

Ah, from the same era, no doubt, as the storesman who says, "you don't need more than two pairs of socks - wear one, wash the other", right? 

 

[geo]

.... and then there were the "disposable" plastic mags we were expected to use forever

 

[MJP]

SMMT,

The standard for magazine changes under emergency situations for deployed troops is what they are taught on the gunfighter program.  That's not to say it is done each and every time that they change a magazine but that they have the requisite muscle memory and practice to quickly and accurately change magazines in what could be split second life or death situations.

Just some background so you all don't think I'm talking out my @ss.  I have taken the gunfighter program and I was taught how to teach it by the 3 VP soldier that designed it.  I'm not a shooting guru nor will I ever claim to be one.  However I do know what I'm taught and what I teach.  There are other smaller units in the CF that probably do allot more shooting and good on them.  This program is for "deploying outside the wire" soldiers of all trades.  Hence it is simple, and intuitive.  I6's drill are very close to the mark on how the drill goes.

Emergency Mag Changes: conducted under fire when you run out of ammo -- bolt locked back.
1) press mag release button, while simultaneously dropping to your knees.  As you fall and press the mag release you are stripping the mag out of the housing and continuing the arm motion towards your next mag and grabbing it1
2) Insert mag and with open hand smash your bolt catch so the bolt will go forward.2
3) re aim from the knees and keep shooting until enemy is down.


1- You are falling to your knees 1) to present a smaller target especially if you are in a close quarter battle, 2) so if required your fireteam partner can move up or shoot over you to take out threats.  Ideally even if you aren't in a close quarter battle you still duck behind some cover while changing magazines.  That said the best cover you can give yourself is outgoing fire and if the enemy is close you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

2-  You use the open hand vice one finger or pulling on the charging handle as during combat you lose most of your fine motor control.  It is much easier to smash something with your entire hand then it is to try and push it with one or two fingers while under fire.  Same thing with trying to cock your rifle to disengage the bolt catch. 


Speed is what matters.  Gunfighters strips away all the useless extraneous movements and makes you able to return fire accurately and quickly enough to neutralize the enemy before he can get you or your buddies.

 

[HItorMiss]

I personally found that the dump pouch was the way to go. No vest or rig is designed to put your mags back in fast only pull then out fast. know I never was engaged in house clearing operation but I have done the gunfighter program. I Agree with the dropping the mag in a building but not so much in a prolonged outdoors engagement where your going to move much farther then you ever would in a building. I take my empty mags with me and the best easiest quickest place was to put them in my dump pouch.

Now again the dump pouch is a personal choice some people don't like it or find it cumbersome, however to most people I always suggested they try it out and see because they might find it to be that combat multiplier that makes a difference.

From my personal experience I will always have one with me when I go into a fight. But that is just me.

 

[KevinB]

SMMT -- Larry Vickers is going to wrap your knuckles on the running the charging handle.   
  Some of the AWG guys where doing that and he "corrected" them

That said -- I know some instructors prefer that method.

Roger on the rotation correction -- I was hoping the pic explained that..

Cheers

 

[edgar]

Even as a no-hook private I figured out that you wouldn't want to 'fiddle' with your mag pouches to put something away while being shot at. I used to throw mags down my shirt but even that is a waste of time. It only prevents going back to pick up your mags which may or may not be a problem you need to solve in the real world.

I saw the same issue with speedloaders when learning the pistol with an armoured transport company. (They still have six-shooters the poor things). My instructor learned from the factory reps and analyzing all the robberies and police gunfights for years. We heard the story about the California Highway Patrolmen who were found shot to death with brass in their pockets, because they had an anal instructor who didn't like brass on the floor.

It is not even accurate to say that you throw the speedloader on the ground. That would be wasted motion. You just open your hand and gravity takes it away for you. What happens is that having fulfilled its function, the object simply leaves your mind, because you have other things to think about. The most common command on the range was "pick up your speedloaders". I think "sling your rifles, go back and get your empty mags" should be commonly heard on the rifle range right from day one. You can always go back and salvage magazines if you are not dead.

 

[KevinB]

You can't always guarantee you can get your mags.
  AT THAT particular moment of time you have to make the choice -on the method of reload you use.
    - If your under cover - tac reload - or even if your empty retain the mag.

Religioously following ANY certain set method will give you muscle memory which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand -- thus your best served by varied and dynamic training.

 

[Armymedic]

SMMT -- Larry Vickers is going to wrap your knuckles on the running the charging handle.   
  Some of the AWG guys where doing that and he "corrected" them

That said -- I know some instructors prefer that method.

Roger on the rotation correction -- I was hoping the pic explained that..

Ack, one instructor's way, another shooters prefernce...
As a lefty, I find it much easier to hit that huge cocking handle I can see than trying to finger a little button on the other side of the weapon

 

[HItorMiss]

Personaly for me when gross motor skills take over I have a mantra....


cocking handle cocking handle cocking handle!!!!!

smashing away at that little button is a waste of time. Now that is under the emergency reload situ, if you have the time might as well not waste a round.

 

[Armymedic]

Tac reloads do not require a cock, just replace the mag.

Emerg reloads you should not lose a round as your gun is empty.

the third type is a speed reload where you dump the partial on the ground and reload a full mag. Its what you do when you need more rounds RFN...and have no time or cover to do a tac reload. This reload should only be used in exception.

 

[HItorMiss]

My Bad Doc,

I was think bolt fully to the rear, why hit the little button and smash around at the side of the weapon when the cocking handle is there and easier to get at.

Your absolutely right you will not lose a round, and during a tac reload the round stays chambered as you do no have to cock the already readied weapon.

My bad on the vague and misleading discription above, my weapons instructor would be shamed isn't that right Popurhedoff 

 

[edgar]

... AT THAT particular moment of time you have to make the choice ...

That's my point, eh? Making a choice takes time, and if you have that time you can pick up your mags and put them away. What I am saying is train for the worse case first.

Religioously following ANY certain set method will give you muscle memory which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand -- thus your best served by varied and dynamic training.

eggzackly - There should probably be a distinction drawn between training you, and training me. I never been shot at. Near, I guess, but not at. You can probably keep a cool head. I'm actually planning to shit my pants and gibber. That might not happen, but If I allow for it in the plan, it won't be a distraction. I'll do the tactical reloads when I think it a good idea. The key is to be able to think.

This has been argued out in the civvy world too here's the first example I pulled off google- http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/POSA/articles/122347/

 

[KevinB]

HOM -- [as Kevin steps up on the soapbox]
  I dont believe the bolt catch to be a fine motor skill
You can slap it with you open hand  - Using a redi-mag and BCE take a bit more - but I still beleive it to be a gross motor function.


SMMT -- the new KAC build TSWG lowers have an ambi bolt release for that reason -- of course they are only going to two US units...



E -- roger your last -- I guess I misread your point. 

 

[HItorMiss]

I6- I don't know I have found myself on ranges whith a stress factor smacking my hand on the rifle trying to get the bolt to ram foreward. Mow that is me of course personaly I just garb the handle and  viola it pops foreward and the the rest o the stoppage is soon complete when rounds go downrage. I find it easier and faster

.

 

[NL_engineer]

HOM -- [as Kevin steps up on the soapbox]
  I dont believe the bolt catch to be a fine motor skill
You can slap it with you open hand  - Using a redi-mag and BCE take a bit more - but I still beleive it to be a gross motor function.

I myself find it easier to slap the bolt catch.  At worst you have to give it a second hit, but that only happend to me in the winter  :threat:.

 

[dan005e]

In regards to the Gunfighter program, who exactly gets to go through it?

Is it a PPCLI only thing or will it be going to the other two infantry Regiments or will it become an Army-wide type thing?

Just curious as it sounds like a pretty interesting shooting package.

 

[Donut]

Ref Gunfighter, I shouldn't comment on other trades (but I will  :nana, but all medics for 1-08 are scehduled to complete this.

If the HSS Coys are doing it, I suspect everyone else outside the wire will do it, too.

 

[HItorMiss]

The Gunfighter Package was devised by I believe DHTC members to to replace the Shoot to live packag that was the standard for te CF. It is now taught by members who have done the CQC package to thier home units.