Which Air trade should I choose?

[George Wallace]

It is all about "attitude".  Someone stating that they only want the CF to train them for a high paying civie job, so that after their first engagement they can find a good civie job is soooooooo self-centered and really rubs those who have joined the CF to "serve" completely wrong.  Why?  Because it is a colossal waste of time and money on the part of the CF and DND to train a person for a job they don't intend on filling.  It is called "COMMITMENT", and we don't see it in this type of person.

 

[gcclarke]

While some of the training money spent on someone could be considered to be "going to waste", I see no reason whatsoever why we should be able to consider ourselves such a good employer that prospective employees should be ready and willing to, despite having no idea whatsoever how the job may or may not actually suit them, stay employed with us until retirement. In this day and age, employees are increasingly fickle. We cannot be expected to somehow remain immune to this.

And, in my not so humble opinion, the vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they may only want to serve a shorter period of time is both unnecessary and unhelpful. Some of you may view service in the CF as your grand purpose in life. Many others of us expect to get as much out of the CF as we give in. For some, that may be training that could be usable for a later career. For others, it's the light of a pension at the end of a tunnel. To imply that being more motivated by the former rather than the latter is a moral failure is, in my not so humble opinion, a moral failure in and of itself. Your motivations for serving are not the only "correct" motivations.

And anyways, someone's expectations about the job before they get their foot in the door really doesn't set their career path in stone. For everyone who got in, expecting to stay in this career for life, only to find out that they don't like it and quit 5 years later there is someone who joined, expecting only to stay till the end of their VIE, who instead sticks till they finish their IE 25.

If the issue of "wasted" training money is that big of a deal, then feel free to pass the suggestion up the chain of command to make all military training incur obligatory service. But I have a feeling the response will be something along the lines of "Are you insane?! That'll kill recruiting" (Edit: I guess this one is moreso for than George.)


Talk of this sort only serves to drive away good people. Good people who might feel that their "loyalty" doesn't meet the "standards" of the CF, standards which, of course, do not actually exist. Good people who might stay in just long enough for us to get some useful work out of them, or who might stay in long enough to hit CRA. Berating people because the reasons that they state for wanting to join don't meet your standards hurts the long term viability of the Canadian Armed Forces, again, in my not so humble opinion.

 

[George Wallace]

On your point about "vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they is both unnecessary and unhelpful"  (a rather unintelligible and disjointed statement); I would like to ask you what your feelings are towards "Institutionalized Welfare"?

In essence, that is what many here feel toward a person whose "stated" only purpose of joining the CF is to get the "Free", "paid" education in order to land a good paying job on civie street after only being in the CF long enough to become a trained technician or journeyman in three or four years time.

So if that doesn't equate to another form of Welfare in you books; fine.  It does in others eyes.

However, as you say, and most will agree, there is nothing that can be done to stop this practice.  It will continue to bother many who will continue to question the committment, loyalty, etc. of these people.

 

[George Wallace]

Oh!  I might add; it always brings a smile to your face when an year or so later such types come marching back in the gate wearing a CF uniform because they found out that the grass was NOT greener on the other side of the fence. 

 

[mariomike]

Any service is appreciated, but wow...what happens if (gulp) you actually like it in the CF?

I think that feeling you are part of a professional organization, and the loyalty it inspires within you, is something you can't put a price on. The CF offers that. Whatever trade you are in. I have family members who have confirmed that to me.

 

[gcclarke]

On your point about "vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they is both unnecessary and unhelpful"  (a rather unintelligible and disjointed statement); I would like to ask you what your feelings are towards "Institutionalized Welfare"?

Granted, it appears I accidentally deleted part of that sentence. Amended accordingly.

In essence, that is what many here feel toward a person whose "stated" only purpose of joining the CF is to get the "Free", "paid" education in order to land a good paying job on civie street after only being in the CF long enough to become a trained technician or journeyman in three or four years time."?

Well, honestly, I do think that any training that confers a qualification that is recognized outside of the CF should incur obligatory service. That having been said, I don't, for example, have a problem with those who, for example, join under the ROTP, graduate, serve out their obligatory service, and move on. Nor do I have a problem with those who get in, get trained in a trade that doesn't confer outside quals, finish out their VIE, and move on.

Anyways, the idea of paid training is one of the bigger guns in our recruiting arsenal. One can't be shocked when it actually attracts people.

Oh, and as for the original poster's stated purpose:

I am not joing the force for civy world. But you always have to build another back up plan for yourself. I believe the forces will treat each member equally. Joining the force was my plan 2 years ago. I often see some of the civy corportation recruit people with military experiences, such as the Bombardier, IMP, etc.  So if you fail the exam, you will be released?

So if that doesn't equate to another form of Welfare in you books; fine.  It does in others eyes.

However, as you say, and most will agree, there is nothing that can be done to stop this practice.  It will continue to bother many who will continue to question the committment, loyalty, etc. of these people.

The only thing that could be done to stop this practice would be to change our regulations. Increase the length of the VIE perhaps? But I cannot fault someone for playing within the rules of the game that we set.

Oh!  I might add; it always brings a smile to your face when an year or so later such types come marching back in the gate wearing a CF uniform because they found out that the grass was NOT greener on the other side of the fence.

Agreed.

 

[SeanNewman]

... Your motivations for serving are not the only "correct" motivations...

Wrongo bongo.

While I would agree with you that secondary motives (money, pension, life skills. etc) are all individually based, as stated by the CF's Statement of Defence Ethics:

Serve Canada Before Self.

The CF has told us we must do that.  We must be givers and not takers.

As soon as someone writes a post stating (to paraphrase) "I'd like to use the CF to teach me some skills I can use somewhere else", you are putting yourself before Canada.  This is not my opinion; this is the Duty that all of us have signed up for.

 

[Strike]

As soon as someone writes a post stating (to paraphrase) "I'd like to use the CF to teach me some skills I can use somewhere else", you are putting yourself before Canada.  This is not my opinion; this is the Duty that all of us have signed up for.

Really?  So, if someone wants to become an engineer so that they can learn all about water treatment and sewage systems through the CF to then take to civvie side so that they can contribute to an NGO or missionary work in a third world country then they are being selfish?  What about someone who joins the MedO program, does the minimum time, and then decides to get out and work as a GP?  Do you really think they're doing it to help themselves?  Doctors are also there to serve others.

The CF is NOT the only institution that helps others.  It just happens to be one of the few that will train you thoroughly so that you CAN help others.

 

[observor 69]

In my experience your career terms are supposed to be set to a time that would compensate for trades training.
For example a five year contract including tech training. I could be out of date on the terms but I would expect the same premise holds.

I also remember many times hearing politicans state that it's a good thing the military is a provider of a pool of trained people who get out and contribute their trade skills to the Canadian economy.

It's an old argument but if loyalty was all that was required to keep people in then there wouldn't be spec pay.

 

[George Wallace]

....... What about someone who joins the MedO program, does the minimum time, and then decides to get out and work as a GP? 

I remember this.

RMC graduate, did Medical School and on graduation immediately opened up a practice in Yellowknife, not wanting to commit to any "Service to Country" in the CF.  The CF trained a doctor, and never got one.  Of course the government tried to recoup some of the monies they spent on this low life, but I am sure they never got much back, perhaps a deal for pennies on the dollar.

That is the type that I really hate.

Yes, there are many who want a good Trade or skill to fall back on when they hit civie street, but there are those who come in like thieves in the night, like the cadet mentioned above.  Those are the ones we are talking about.

 

[mariomike]

The CF is NOT the only institution that helps others.  It just happens to be one of the few that will train you thoroughly so that you CAN help others.

Help others and you help yourself.

 

[gcclarke]

Service Canada before self. Doing so is an action. Something someone does. It has nothing to do with someone's motivation for deciding to serve. Someone can be in for the duration of their VIE, and get out after, while still being a damned good sailor / soldier / airman / airwoman whilst in uniform.

Loyalty. Loyalty to the Crown. Not necessarily to the Canadian Armed Forces. One can be a civilian and still be an especially loyal citizen of our country. One can even be a citizen working in private industry utilizing skills they learned in the CF and still be an especially loyal citizen of our country. After all, who pays our wages? Loyalty is a good reason to join. But it is not the only valid reason. And were it the only acceptable reason to join up, we would very shortly find ourselves desperately short on personnel. You know, more so than we are now.

Bringing up the MO who decided that he didn't want to be an MO is a red herring. He incurred obligatory service and failed to provide it. Obviously yes, in his case he was in the wrong. Had he served his time and then gotten out, he would not have been in the wrong.

Again I state my humble opinion that people playing within the rules that we set forth are doing no wrong. Serving out your VIE and then releasing does not make you a bad person. Whether that VIE is long enough is of course a matter of opinion. If you think the rules are flawed, attempt to get them changed. But I still think it is the absolute height of arrogance to go on about how someone else's reasons for joining up are "wrong", the obvious implication of course being that you signed on the dotted line for the "right" reasons.

 

[geeman]

I was an Aero Engine Tech from 1988 until 1995 when I took FRP upon my release and SCAN stuff I got hooked up with a guy from Alberta Advanced Education and he talked to me about becoming a Millwright.  That was the path that I eventually took and I never looked back.  The few guys that I know that ended up completing the AME stuff are all currently employed so that is a positive.  However as a millwright I ended up in FT Mac working for Shell Canada, with my military background and training, in two different trades as the result of a remuster, my CLC it was less than 1 year before I was working as Plant Turnaround Coordinator, within two years of my start date I was now the Team Lead on a multi-trade team looking after quick response breakdowns kind of liking working in snags at Aircraft Servicing.  There is life after DND but usually you have to find out everything on your own.  Life in industry can be transitioned from either AVN or AVS so pick what ever your heart is leading you to and just be aware of what you have to offer after release as nobody will tell you while you are still serving.

gg