Who do you like for Liberal leader?

[Blindspot]

Seems like Iggy is coming out of orbit and disintegrating on entry.

He doesn't loose any sleep over Qana - the Israelis committed war crimes. Wait - both sides committed war crimes! I'm so confused!

Campaign organizer abandons Ignatieff over war crimes comment

Wed Oct 11, 8:08 PM
By Joan Bryden
The Canadian Press

OTTAWA (CP) - Another controversial comment by Liberal leadership front-runner Michael Ignatieff has cost him the support of his Toronto campaign co-chair.

Thornhill MP Susan Kadis withdrew her support for Ignatieff on Wednesday, after he accused Israel of committing a "war crime" during its bombardment of Lebanon last summer.

"Michael is an intelligent person and I would think that he would have a better handle on the Middle East given his years of experience on human rights and international law," Kadis said in a written statement.

Kadis was reacting to Ignatieff's appearance on a French-language television program Sunday, in which he said that Israel's bombing of the Lebanese village of Qana was a war crime. Dozens of civilians died in the attack.

Ironically, the controversy erupted as Ignatieff was attempting to explain a previous gaffe about Qana.

Last summer, Ignatieff was quoted saying that he was "not losing sleep" over the civilian deaths in Qana - an insensitive remark which he later admitted was a mistake.

Kadis condemned Ignatieff's remarks, echoing concerns by Jewish groups.

She said she found Ignatieff's "unprovoked comments very troubling," given that Israel's attack on Qana was a response to the "brazen kidnapping" of Israeli soldiers and missile attacks by Lebanese-based Hezbollah guerrillas.

"This was an attack intended to root out a recognized terrorist group who were raining down thousands of missiles on Israel," she said.

Ignatieff issued his own statement, in which he said he "deeply regrets" Kadis' decision to abandon his leadership bid.

"I think I understand, and respect Susan's decision," Ignatieff said Wednesday during a news conference at his Toronto campaign office.

"Susan is a personal friend and a valued caucus colleague, and her decision causes me pain, but I understand and respect it."

He yet again clarified his position on the conflict, calling himself a "lifelong friend of Israel" and stressing his support for Israel's right to defend itself.

Ignatieff repeated his assertion that war crimes were committed, although without naming either side in the conflict.

"I believe that war crimes were committed in the war in Lebanon, I don't think there's any question about it, and war crimes were visited on Israeli civilians and they were visited on Lebanese civilians," he said.

"We've got to be determined as Canadians to do whatever we can to make sure that military solutions are not sought in this conflict because the consequences are just more civilian death."

The Middle East has brought political grief for a number of the Liberal leadership contenders.

Joe Volpe's campaign manager, Toronto MP Jim Karygiannis, quit over Volpe's unwavering defence of Israel.

Gerard Kennedy was forced to distance himself from one of his supporters, Toronto MP Borys Wrzesnewskyj, who accused Israel of engaging in "state terrorism" and called for Hezbollah to be removed from Canada's list of terrorist organizations.

Wrzesnewskyj resigned as the party's associate foreign affairs critic over those remarks.

 

[vonGarvin]

Maybe Iggy is trying to get into the Liberal Comfort zone of a dithering, see-sawing leader who goes with the flow?  (Yes, this is sarcasm) ;D

 

[geo]

better to hear it now than to hear it later.........

 

[Blindspot]

I would really like to know who Susan Kadis is going to support now. If commenting that Israel committed warcrimes is enough for her to withdraw her support for the Leadership of a party then the only real wagon she has left to hitch up to is.... Harper. Come on, Susan, feel the power of the Dark Side.

 

[vonGarvin]

:rofl:

Now THAT'S funny!

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I can't say I exactly agree with what Ignatiff has said recently,  but in all honesty I have a new respect for him.  I respect that he can state his position,  admit when he is wrong and accept the consequences of being honest with his views.  He has conducted himself like a real statesman through this whole thing (something I thought beyond him)

 

[InfantryWannabee]

The reporting on what Ignatieff said about Israel is indecipherable. In the same article, it says that he thinks Israel commited war crimes in Qana, and that he doesn't lose any sleep over Qana. WTF is the reporter trying to get across?

 

[a_majoor]

Never mind the reporter, what is Ignatieff trying to say?

 

[Blindspot]

He has conducted himself like a real statesman through this whole thing (something I thought beyond him)

I see a bored academic foisting himself upon a tired, broken party trying to suck oxygen in a vacuum. I believe he views his home country as a banana republic that he can dupe into crowning him ala Return of the King. Only problem is he doesn't have a clue about the affairs of court.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I see a bored academic foisting himself upon a tired, broken party trying to suck oxygen in a vacuum. I believe he views his home country as a banana republic that he can dupe into crowning him ala Return of the King. Only problem is he doesn't have a clue about the affairs of court.

:rofl:Brilliant!   I'm not just saying that because I've thought extremely similar things either.  As much as I dislike his views on the acceptability of torture and the war in Iraq he is the last best hope to stop Bob Ray from returning to power. ( I'd vote for George Bush himself to stop Bob Ray - but that's just my newfound abhorrence for anything NDP)

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Liberals and the NDP are dredging the political depths for the knee-jerk anti-American bottom feeders – and there are plenty of them, maybe even a majority of Canadians fall into or near that category.  I have said before that I am about 95% certain that George W. Bush will still be president when we go next to the polls in Canada and running against George Bush will be a popular and rewarding strategy.  Many, many, maybe most Canadians are far more anti-Bush than they are for anything,  anything at all.

In Canada, as is the case throughout the West, in general, being anti-American brings with it the old enemy of my enemy is my friend dictum and that means that being anti-American almost automatically makes one anti-Israel.  In the real electoral war – the one for the anti-Americans – Ignatieff’s recent comments made perfect sense.  That they were dead wrong, even stupid, and beyond any reasonable standard which must apply to someone with his credentials is beside the point: he’s running for office in Canada so honesty and logic can be tossed aside – in safety; Canadians voters will not care.

Harper’s characterization of Liberals being anti-Israel is untrue and unfair but that, like Ignatieff’s comments, will not bother anyone.  Harper is deeply involved in the Liberal/NDP battle – and he is, firmly, allied with Taliban Jack Layton! He wants Layton to split the loony-left vote because he will, almost certainly, win a few seats by ’coming up the middle’ whenever the NDP drags away enough of the traditional Liberal vote.

Harper is also sending out an equally important if somewhat subtle message: “You may not like all my positions but you must admit that I am consistent and I keep my word.”  That will, the Tories hope, counter the fact, and I think it is a fact, that most Canadians do not agree with or much like Harper.  I think the Tory brain-trust thinks that competence is more important than personality; they think that Canadians liked Martin, at first, because they thought he was competent – they turned against him when they perceived him to be Mr. Dithers.  Harper’s Tories want to paint all Liberals as shifting with the wind.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Edward,  I didn't mean to impugn anyone.  I wanted to express my distain for Bob Ray in an amusing way,  I should have realised even mentioning  ... mentioning ... he who can not be named (another bad joke,  sorry) would invoke the anti-anti-Americans to point voice themselves.  Which I must say you did with both clarity of thought and expression.

    I have to disagree with your assumption of the intention of Ignatiff's recent comments.  Ignatiff will never receive the Muslim or the anti-Israeli vote.  Ever.  He has ensured they will do what they can to keep him out of power a LONG time ago. (I know people who wouldn't slow down if they saw him j-walking,  I'm not saying they'd speed up... but they wouldn't go out of their way ... to not,  well you know)  I can't see him changing his opinion as a political strategy in order to win votes - he has lost more votes than he's received because of this.  I think he has said exactly what he believes to be true.  I honestly believe that Ignatiff believes what he says and I believe that George Bush honestly believes he is doing good in the world.  I can disagree with what they believe without disagreeing that they believe it.

    I have to agree with you on the Tory's desire to appear calm and competent.  The Ralph Klein strategy,  say what you mean,  mean what you say and do what you said you would.  It is very appealing to know that a person will follow through on what they say they will.  I think the Liberal strategy will be to simply tell Canadians what the Tory's are saying they will do.  The Tories hold a rally to repeal same sex marrage,  the grits will hold a rally to say "the Tories want to repeal same sex marrage".  The Grits lacked the credibility last election to properly smear the Tories,  maybe with a new leader they can get back to fear mongering and do nothing except what the latest opinion polls say to do governance.

 

[Edward Campbell]

My sense of the Ignatieff campaign (and that's all it is - just a sense from reading the papers, etc) is that he hit the panic button after the delegate selection when he came in 15% below expectations - at 30% rather than 35%.  With 35% he might have gotten a whopping majority of the serving MP/senator/former candidate/party apparatchik vote and would have been a second ballot shoo-in.  Now it looks as though Dion might win the prize on the 4th ballot.

I think the Red machine is now in charge – and it is the Paul Martin machine, I think – so reacting to polls is all that matters.  Polls say Québecers are anti-Israel : accuse Israelis of war crimes.

Ignatieff’s remarks today mean that, having thoroughly alienated the Jewish vote – including Irving Cotler’s wife! - he has now turned back on the Muslims by affirming that Hezbollah, too, committed war crimes.  Dumb!  Now everyone either hates him or thinks he is terminally stupid; I’m sure it is the Martin campaign team.

Harper set a simple trap: all the Liberals walked into it.  They are all forced to try to find nuanced positions which will give minimal offence to Muslims and Jews while remaining firmly anti-American.  It is impossible.  The issue was, potentially, a one day wonder: stupid comment by Iggy, cruel, insensitive shot by Harper … OK, next story.  Not now; now it has ‘legs’ as the journalists say and it will, likely, dominate the Saturday and Sunday news, too.

I think Iggy’s campaign just lost more than one wheel.

I also think Dion scares the hell out of the Tories.  He may have issues with the Québec nationalists and his English may be poor (‘tit Jean who?) but he is gaining traction, I think, and, consequentially, good press which may draw considerable 2nd and 3rd ballot support away from Ingatieff, Kennedy and Rae.  I wonder if Brison and Dryden (maybe Hall-Findlay, too) will not find him the candidate most likely to win and acceptably compatible with their respective views?  If they move to him then I think the race is won.

All speculation based on conjecture.  It’s probably a very good thing I’m not a Liberal!  ;D

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I can't say I exactly agree with what Ignatiff has said recently,  but in all honesty I have a new respect for him.  I respect that he can state his position,  admit when he is wrong and accept the consequences of being honest with his views.  He has conducted himself like a real statesman through this whole thing (something I thought beyond him)

This statement is tongue-in-cheek, right?


Matthew.  ???

 

[Edward Campbell]

Oh! OH! OH! What a lovely war!

I just heard PM Harper on the radio blasting the Liberals, except that he expressly exempted Brison and Volpe, for attacking Ignatieff for the comments with which the PM expressly disagreed.

He has, probably, given this ‘story’ another couple of days of ‘life’ so that Liberals can remind all Jewish voters (who have long but maybe not forever constituted a Liberal stronghold) that several leadership candidates are, at least, sympathetic to the Arabs, including those with staffers who march in anti-Israel parades (in Montreal) where Hezbollah flags are on parade and, while in the process of trying to mollify Jewish voters, also alienate Arab sympathizers by trying to be ‘even-handed’ by declaring that they are ‘friends’ of Israel and, anway, Arabs committed war crimes too.

Keep the Liberal leadership candidates debating the Israel/Lebanon thing; further confuse and annoy voters ... Neat.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

This statement is tongue-in-cheek, right?
Matthew.   ???

God I wish.   I ache for my simpler world where "Iggy” (I like that nickname) was a bad guy with horns who held simplistic views.  (Fittingly simple views, I thought him a simpleton) – I can’t stop with the bad allusions today.

    I just saw on the news his reaction/rebuttal.  In a purely academic way he just *****-slapped Harper. I can’t explain how perplexed I am that Iggy is suddenly looking less like the creepy professor the other staff try to keep away from social parties and more like a statesman. I think there is a Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde thing going on here.

   In my limited assessment, I think that the key demographics (right now Liberal swing voters) likely are quite impressed that Iggy isn't even the leader (yet) and already he just landed one upside the PM's head.   Ordinary Canadians likely just heard a fierce condemnation of absolutism (something most Canadians take issue with) and a very subtle association to …. He who can not be named.    

    I basically like Harper; I’m from Alberta and I know conservatives who are now in Ottawa. After seeing that news conference it looks like it is Harper who has fallen into a trap – Iggy couldn’t have planned it that well.

 

[vonGarvin]

PM Harper did respond.  I don't have a link (unless I can find a way to link to my radio...).  Harper responded by reminding "us" (the consumers of media) that back in the summer, most, but not all, Liberal Leaders condemned Israel.  He pointed out that "Mr. Brison and Mr. Volpe did not".  Divide and Conquer?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I ache for my simpler world where "Iggy” (I like that nickname) ...

... I just saw on the news his reaction/rebuttal.  In a purely academic way he just *****-slapped Harper ...

I think 'Iggy' has had so many nuanced positions on one issue over three days that I'm going to start using 'flipper' as his nickname.

You may be right about the rebuttal; I think all I saw was petulant whinging.

What was that rubbish about "our constitution" and "the integrity of parliament"?  Does he not know the difference between a head-of-state (who does represent all Canadians) and the 'head-of-government' who is, and is supposed to be a partisan politician?  Did he fail Poli Sci 101?  I thought he looked like someone who has trouble remembering that he is in Canada, dealing with Canadian politics.

I repeat: I think Flipper just blew it; I think his campaign hit the panic button and I think Harper, who is a cold, mean, nasty SOB, is loving every minute of it.

Flipper is right about one thing: Harper is dividing Canadians.  That’s what he’s trying to do.  He wants the anti-Israel/anti-American vote to divide, with the NDP gaining at Liberal expense.  He expects to keep the 35+/-% of Canadians who are not anti-Israel/anti-American – he only needs about 10% of the remaining voters (and only 60% of Canadian do vote) to get 40% of the national popular vote and a majority government.

 

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

God I wish.   I ache for my simpler world where "Iggy” (I like that nickname) was a bad guy with horns who held simplistic views.  (Fittingly simple views, I thought him a simpleton) – I can’t stop with the bad allusions today.

    I just saw on the news his reaction/rebuttal.  In a purely academic way he just *****-slapped Harper. I can’t explain how perplexed I am that Iggy is suddenly looking less like the creepy professor the other staff try to keep away from social parties and more like a statesman. I think there is a Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde thing going on here.

   In my limited assessment, I think that the key demographics (right now Liberal swing voters) likely are quite impressed that Iggy isn't even the leader (yet) and already he just landed one upside the PM's head.   Ordinary Canadians likely just heard a fierce condemnation of absolutism (something most Canadians take issue with) and a very subtle association to …. He who can not be named.    

    I basically like Harper; I’m from Alberta and I know conservatives who are now in Ottawa. After seeing that news conference it looks like it is Harper who has fallen into a trap – Iggy couldn’t have planned it that well.

Sorry Zell, you maybe a Liberal partisan, but that's disengenuous.  The first time Ignatief was right and basically pointed the finger where it belonged at Hezbollah.  Going back and "nuancing" his position to garner the anti-Israel vote by calling what happened at Qana a war crime, isn't measured, it's the same spineless pandering we've come to expect from Chretien, Martin and their apologist cronies.

Of note, if you haven't looked up the debunking of the Qana massacre, I suggest you do so.  The entire thing was a stage-managed Hezbollah propaganda event.  Specifically, look up "Green Helmet" and you'll find a breakdown of the film and the Hezbollah actor who has played every role from a grieving father to an ambulance driver to a fireman to a soldier to a journalist in various media events over the last 10 years.

RE:  Iggy bitchslapping Harper - Yeah, good luck with that.  When you don't have an ethical base for your positions (as Ignatieff doesn't in this case), only the party faithful buy your crap....everyone else just thinks you're a clown.


Matthew. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Further, just because I’m enjoying this, much as one enjoys watching a train wreck in slow motion: Ignatieff complained (whinged) that Harper showed his “lack of respect for the official opposition.”  Indeed he did.  He holds the opposition in contempt.

Remember Exteter’s speech to the French Court in Henry V?  He was asked what message Henry had for the Dauphin; he said something like: “Scorn and defiance; slight regard, contempt, and any thing that may not misbecome the mighty sender.” 

That’s what Harper has on offer for the Liberals.

The next election will be in 2007, I think – maybe in the spring, just after a good news budget which I will hate.  Harper will, just in time, just as Canadians start to pay attention, start looking prime ministerial; until then he will be bitterly, cruelly partisan – aiding Taliban Jack bin Layton even as he tries to steal one Montreal, a couple of Toronto and maybe a Winnipeg  riding where the loony-left vote slides father left but the Jewish vote goes Tory.

My only worry, as a Conservative voter, is that in his bashing of Flipper and friends he will propel Dion up the middle and I think Dion will be harder to beat (fewer festering negatives} than either Flipper or Bob Rae.