Who needs sailors anyway?

[Colin Parkinson]

They have the same kind of Martech initial training and specialization we went to; they just kept HT as a specialization. I think they split after the equivalent to our QL3, so everyone does a basic rounds package and has a baseline understanding of basic marine engineering and safety for electrical, mechanical and structural, then goes from there.

They actually went down the same path as we did and got rid of shiprights, then added it back in. They specifically recommended we not do that, but we did anyway (to break up the 'stoker mafia').

Still no firm timeline for getting HT/shipwright specialization in place, as it's been 5-7 years for a while, but at least is approved and actively worked on. When we get there though, our trades will essentially line up again.

Which is good, because T26 design and SOPs are based around the RN trades. That includes having DC specialists with the much (much) smaller DC organization, which we are even more limited in after going with AEGIS. Not having HTs actually in place has been passed back to the RCN as a risk for crewing CSC so hopefully that change doesn't stall further. Until we actually have people trained and out of the pipeline it's only a plan.

The hard part there is we are taking so long to do it that the legacy HTs are largely retired or retiring, so we will likely have a hard time finding instructors.

I am sure a bunch will come back as contractors, while they extract their pound of flesh from DND.

I am not sure where people think we are going to get a new combatant from? Certainly not the US yards. At best we might get a couple ships from European yards, but then be faced with a large training issue on top of all the current training/manpower issues we currently have. Plus I doubt we have the budget to fully arm the fleet with new missiles.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I am sure a bunch will come back as contractors, while they extract their pound of flesh from DND.

I am not sure where people think we are going to get a new combatant from? Certainly not the US yards. At best we might get a couple ships from European yards, but then be faced with a large training issue on top of all the current training/manpower issues we currently have. Plus I doubt we have the budget to fully arm the fleet with new missiles.

I'd be pretty happy to just have the current program roll out as planned, but still don't see how in the medium term we aren't tying up the MCDVs and maybe a few CPFs to run AOPs, JSS, and keep staffing the CPFs that we can afford to keep fixing and subs. I don't see 15 CSCs being delivered, but 12 would be good.

I think people who think a whack of different orphan ships is a good idea have never completed a 'know your ship' package, done any of the other platform specific quals, or tried to support multiple classes. Mixing in another class of ship may not double the work, but it's definitely not a small, incremental increase to the LOE. Currently working in an LCMM job that supports the entire surface and subsurface fleet, and the learning curve is enormous anytime something comes up on a different class you aren't familiar with. When you have to find a manual and drawings and figure out how the system specifically works, what standards it's built to etc 'does this replacement part work' is not a simple question to answer.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If we need to fill a "gap" right now, then order 3 KS-III with the VLS right now, with another 3 to be delivered after that. We could likley man two of the subs and they would give us some real teeth and would be able to keep at sea longer. One of those in the Red Sea would make the Iranians uncomfortable.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If we need to fill a "gap" right now, then order 3 KS-III with the VLS right now, with another 3 to be delivered after that. We could likley man two of the subs and they would give us some real teeth and would be able to keep at sea longer. One of those in the Red Sea would make the Iranians uncomfortable.

Surface fleet 'We have crewing problems'
Sub fleet 'Hold my beer, amateurs!'

 

[Kirkhill]

More on robots



Independence LCS as mothership with two autonomous OSVs (Ranger and Mariner) off her starboard quarter and two autonomous ISRVs (Sea Hunter and Seahawk) to port. Ranger is the roboship that launched an SM6 from a 40 foot seacan.

U.S. Navy deployment puts Leidos autonomy on display

A task group including four unmanned surface vessels developed by Leidos reached Sydney Harbor this week after crossing the Pacific Ocean for the first time.

www.leidos.com

Leidos selected by U.S. Navy to operate and sustain medium unmanned vessels

Leidos to manage, operate and maintain the U.S. Navy’s Overlord and medium USVs.

www.leidos.com

Leidos to develop autonomous uncrewed aerial resupply system for U.S. Marine Corps

Leidos was recently awarded a new prime contract to develop an uncrewed aircraft system that can autonomously resupply forward-deployed ground forces.

www.leidos.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Silly thoughts for the weekend....

335 berths in 16 hulls for 152 crew and 183 mission specialists.
316 airline seats for additional passengers

Over 12,000 m2 of flexible storage (5000 m2 of Weather Deck/Flight Deck)
Volume equivalent to 352 TEU-40 (weight limited to 3000 tonnes total)
3-6 MH-60 Crewed Helos
9 MQ-8B Armed UAVs

Self Defence

33x SeaRAM
3x 57mm
6x 30mm

24x NSM
72x Hellfire

Strike/LRAD

216 Strike Length VLS cells mounted in Lockheed Martin Mk70 Payload Delivery Systems (PDS)
4 Cells per PDS equivalent to 1x TEU-40
8-9 PDS per MUSV-FSV Alya McCall

4 Crewed Vessels
3 Fighting Vessels
1 MRT/TCV Vessel

12 MUSVs
6 ISR
6 Cargo FSVs.

Flotilla max speed (target) 40 knots.

			Crew	Specialists	Berths	Pax
			#	#	#	#
1	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
2	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
3	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	26	78	104	312
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
Total			152	183	335	312

			Hangar	Mission Bay	Weather Deck	Capacity	Capacity
			m2	m2	m2	Tonnes	TEU-40*
1	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
2	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
3	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	0	1900	380	545	64
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
Total			1053	6130	5432	3005	352

			Capacity	Missiles	Missiles	Missiles	Guns	Guns	Helos	Helos
			VLS Cells	NSM	SeaRAM	Hellfire	57mm	30mm	MH-60	MQ-8B
1	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
2	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
3	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Total			216	24	33	72	3	6	3	9

 

[Furniture]

Silly thoughts for the weekend....

335 berths in 16 hulls for 152 crew and 183 mission specialists.
316 airline seats for additional passengers

Over 12,000 m2 of flexible storage (5000 m2 of Weather Deck/Flight Deck)
Volume equivalent to 352 TEU-40 (weight limited to 3000 tonnes total)
3-6 MH-60 Crewed Helos
9 MQ-8B Armed UAVs

Self Defence

33x SeaRAM
3x 57mm
6x 30mm

24x NSM
72x Hellfire

Strike/LRAD

216 Strike Length VLS cells mounted in Lockheed Martin Mk70 Payload Delivery Systems (PDS)
4 Cells per PDS equivalent to 1x TEU-40
8-9 PDS per MUSV-FSV Alya McCall

4 Crewed Vessels
3 Fighting Vessels
1 MRT/TCV Vessel

12 MUSVs
6 ISR
6 Cargo FSVs.

Flotilla max speed (target) 40 knots.

			Crew	Specialists	Berths	Pax
			#	#	#	#
1	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
2	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
3	LCS-02	Independence	42	35	77	0
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	26	78	104	312
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	0	0
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0
Total			152	183	335	312

			Hangar	Mission Bay	Weather Deck	Capacity	Capacity
			m2	m2	m2	Tonnes	TEU-40*
1	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
2	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
3	LCS-02	Independence	351	1410	1030	210	80
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	0	1900	380	545	64
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	0	0	327	305	8
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0
Total			1053	6130	5432	3005	352

			Capacity	Missiles	Missiles	Missiles	Guns	Guns	Helos	Helos
			VLS Cells	NSM	SeaRAM	Hellfire	57mm	30mm	MH-60	MQ-8B
1	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
2	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
3	LCS-02	Independence	0	8	11	24	1	2	1	3
4	EPF-MRT	Spearhead	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
5	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
6	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
7	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
8	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
9	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
10	MUSV-FSV	Alya McCall	32	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
11	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
12	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
13	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
14	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
15	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
16	MUSV-ISR	Sea Hunter	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Total			216	24	33	72	3	6	3	9

This would likely work in a littoral fight, but since we have a lot of big blue water to cross to get to a littoral fight, it's not practical for the RCN.

Genuine question: Have you ever crossed an ocean by ship?

The transit from Esquimalt to Hawaii is 5-7 days, Hawaii to Japan/Guam takes near two weeks. Two to three weeks across a big, somewhat predictable ocean is an eternity for uncrewed systems. That's three weeks before entering theatre, where you might spend months/years waiting to use those systems, systems that need a lot of regular maintenance.

 

[Kirkhill]

This would likely work in a littoral fight, but since we have a lot of big blue water to cross to get to a littoral fight, it's not practical for the RCN.

Genuine question: Have you ever crossed an ocean by ship?

The transit from Esquimalt to Hawaii is 5-7 days, Hawaii to Japan/Guam takes near two weeks. Two to three weeks across a big, somewhat predictable ocean is an eternity for uncrewed systems. That's three weeks before entering theatre, where you might spend months/years waiting to use those systems, systems that need a lot of regular maintenance.

I don't know. Does Seattle to Dutch in a typhoon count? Mucking around in the Bering Sea? Trawlers and factory ships.

Ship OCEAN PHOENIX (Fish Factory) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 6413924, MMSI 366588000, Call sign KCAK

Vessel OCEAN PHOENIX is a Fish Factory, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of OCEAN PHOENIX including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 6413924, MMSI...

www.marinetraffic.com

Ship AMERICAN TRIUMPH (Trawler) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 7738412, MMSI 366047000, Call sign KTHZ

Vessel AMERICAN TRIUMPH is a Trawler, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of AMERICAN TRIUMPH including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 7738412, MMSI...

www.marinetraffic.com

Ship NORTHERN JAEGER (Factory Trawler) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 7334826, MMSI 366046000, Call sign WNBG

Vessel NORTHERN JAEGER is a Factory Trawler, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of NORTHERN JAEGER including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 7334826...

www.marinetraffic.com

 

[Furniture]

I don't know. Does Seattle to Dutch in a typhoon count? Mucking around in the Bering Sea? Trawlers and factory ships.

Ship OCEAN PHOENIX (Fish Factory) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 6413924, MMSI 366588000, Call sign KCAK

Vessel OCEAN PHOENIX is a Fish Factory, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of OCEAN PHOENIX including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 6413924, MMSI...

www.marinetraffic.com

Ship AMERICAN TRIUMPH (Trawler) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 7738412, MMSI 366047000, Call sign KTHZ

Vessel AMERICAN TRIUMPH is a Trawler, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of AMERICAN TRIUMPH including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 7738412, MMSI...

www.marinetraffic.com

Ship NORTHERN JAEGER (Factory Trawler) Registered in USA - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 7334826, MMSI 366046000, Call sign WNBG

Vessel NORTHERN JAEGER is a Factory Trawler, Registered in USA. Discover the vessel's particulars, including capacity, machinery, photos and ownership. Get the details of the current Voyage of NORTHERN JAEGER including Position, Port Calls, Destination, ETA and Distance travelled - IMO 7334826...

www.marinetraffic.com

If your goal is to move ships up the coast one way, then invest heavily in maintenance once they arrive, sure.

Also, it isn't a Typhoon in the Eastern Pacific, and it definitely isn't a Typhoon north of 30 degrees North.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If your goal is to move ships up the coast one way, then invest heavily in maintenance once they arrive, sure.

Also, it isn't a Typhoon in the Eastern Pacific, and it definitely isn't a Typhoon north of 30 degrees North.

The Gulf of Alaska Low just…is.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The Gulf of Alaska Low just…is.

Wet. cold, and full of puke...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Wet. cold, and full of puke...

You forgot the fog…

 

[GR66]

More potential solutions for a Navy short of personnel...

Saildrone and Thales Australia to Integrate Towed Array on USV - Naval News

Thales Australia’s BlueSentry thin-line towed array will be integrated with Saildrone Surveyor-class USVs for autonomous anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missions in the open ocean.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Navy_Pete]

After seeing the struggles of equipment operating continuously for week with ongoing maintenance, just massively skeptical of a lot of these claims.

The 'unmanned' ship thing is interesting, it's usually 'it's unmanned, except when we're doing a,b,c, and d. Oh, and e, f and g. Sometimes h'. As soon as you add 'except' you need to have all the hotel services and other equipment to make it survivable for people.

If it's truly autonomous, you can do things like make the atmosphere hypoxic so nothing can burn, and get rid of a lot of equipment that is only there because you have people onboard. Not having things like toilets, laundry, kitchens, fresh water etc and all the HVAC gets rid of a lot of complexity and maintenance.

As long as you accept it's potentially disposable and completely unsecure, it's a great idea for sensors. Weeks on the ocean (or under the ocean) is a much harsher environment than a day or two flying at altitude though so there is a good reason we have air drones and not many marine drones.

 

[GR66]

After seeing the struggles of equipment operating continuously for week with ongoing maintenance, just massively skeptical of a lot of these claims.

The 'unmanned' ship thing is interesting, it's usually 'it's unmanned, except when we're doing a,b,c, and d. Oh, and e, f and g. Sometimes h'. As soon as you add 'except' you need to have all the hotel services and other equipment to make it survivable for people.

If it's truly autonomous, you can do things like make the atmosphere hypoxic so nothing can burn, and get rid of a lot of equipment that is only there because you have people onboard. Not having things like toilets, laundry, kitchens, fresh water etc and all the HVAC gets rid of a lot of complexity and maintenance.

As long as you accept it's potentially disposable and completely unsecure, it's a great idea for sensors. Weeks on the ocean (or under the ocean) is a much harsher environment than a day or two flying at altitude though so there is a good reason we have air drones and not many marine drones.

I agree that the claims about the capabilities of these autonomous systems (like pretty much any other product being flogged) are exaggerated. Also 100% agree that the more capabilities you try to add to these systems the more expensive and liable to break down/require human support they become.

As far as I'm concerned you follow the KISS principle. Keep them simple, cheap and attritible. That allows you to deploy them in volume as well as giving you the freedom to pivot to other solutions when required. To take an Army example you could spend a lot of money to make an autonomous LAV that does most/all the things a manned LAV can do but when you realize that a LAV is no longer suitable for your requirements it's just as difficult to pivot away from the U-LAV as it is from a manned LAV due to the sunk costs.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The funny bit is those have existed for a few decades, and have been proven to work fine in a very limited scope and known restrictions. DRDC prototyped and proved some that we didn't do anything with, and they were cheap enough that if you didn't recover one wasn't the end of the world.

People want to develop these all singing and dancing ships that end up costing more than normal ships, and have longer downtime because you can't do maintenance on them while in operation, so you have to do it all when they are alongside (so means you need more to get the same operational coverage). And the price tag is enough that people don't want to lose them, or the tech to be protected, which usually means people.

I think there is a use for them for sure; I'd much rather have some kind of UUV however many miles away from me listening for subs that could pop up and give an early warning as subs are terrifying, but building an 'optionally crewed' mine sweeper that you want to put people on it to do some of the stuff it needs to do in a minefield because it costs too much to lose kind of defeats the purpose.

Also arming a ship that is controlled by AI is kind of terrifying; they can't even make chatbots that don't turn into incel edgelords when exposed to the world, and I really don't want Terminator to turn into a prediction.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Fully agree with Navy Pete here. The best demonstration of what a useful, cheap, expandable-if-need-be UUV would look like is a recoverable and rechargeable sonobuoy.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Fully agree with Navy Pete here. The best demonstration of what a useful, cheap, expandable-if-need-be UUV would look like is a recoverable and rechargeable sonobuoy.

But, why would you bother?

 

[Navy_Pete]

But, why would you bother?

They last a few weeks loitering in an area and pop up to the surface for pickup when their battery gets low that you can hand carry. Cheap easy sensor net that doesn't need underwater cables, crew rest etc., and don't weigh 15 tonnes at 20m like the Thales sail boat solution, which would need special launch/deployment/storage setup. ALso probably won't be too fussed if someone decides to grab it as salvage, which you could easily do the the sailboat which may have some more sensitive tech in the sensors and also much higher unit cost.

Autonomous ship salvage rights on the open ocean sounds like an interesting new legal frontier though; what is preventing from anyone that sees it declaring it abandoned? Maybe I could finally get that letter of marque I dreamed of as a kid!