Why Acting Sub-Lieutenant, and Where are the Midshipmen & Ensigns (Merged thread)

[IN HOC SIGNO]

How about going back to having a midshipman:

Midshipmen also had three buttons sewn on their sleeve parallel to the hem and about in the same position as their future stripe. The joke was that these were to keep them from wiping their noses on their sleeves and thus they were nicknamed "Snotties." In the CF post unification Navy all officers were nicknamed "Snotties" by some NCOs and enlisted referring to the superior attitude adopted by a lot of the RN trained RCN officers of yesteryear. Some of this attitude still remains and I've noticed it in some Wardrooms...a wise XO gets a a grip on that pretty quick.
Midshipman is more the equivalent of OCdt or Naval Cadet than Acting Sub. Acting Sub was a rank designator in the old RCN for like "acting lacking" when he didn't have his ticket yet.
In the USN a one striper is a Ensign and one and a half is a LT Junior Grade.
Ensign might be a good new name if Acting Sub is not that cool.

Also of note in the old RCN they wore colour between the stripes to let you know what classification of officer he was....i.e. cream colour=supply, purple=engineer, red=medical, no colour=Executive Branch or what we know as MARRS today. The Padre wore an officer's uniform but no rank and a clerical colour instead of a tie.

 

[Cayuga]

Midshipman is more the equivalent of OCdt or Naval Cadet than Acting Sub. Acting Sub was a rank designator in the old RCN for like "acting lacking" when he didn't have his ticket yet.
In the USN a one striper is a Ensign and one and a half is a LT Junior Grade.
Ensign might be a good new name if Acting Sub is not that cool.

Also of note in the old RCN they wore colour between the stripes to let you know what classification of officer he was....i.e. cream colour=supply, purple=engineer, red=medical, no colour=Executive Branch or what we know as MARRS today. The Padre wore an officer's uniform but no rank and a clerical colour instead of a tie.

I didn't know about the old RCN reference to Acting Subbie. I do know that I have lost count of the number of times when people have asked me what my rank is and that the usual response is along the lines of " so get back to me when they figure out what you are" or "so you are pretend officer" or "wow that is a mouth full, I bet you can't wait to get promoted"

I like Ensign, but I would be leery about wearing redshirts. Especially since I tell people who are confused about my rank is that I am like an Ensign on Star Trek.

I dislike the American Junior Grade and Lower Half way of doing things, but mainly because Commodore sounds so much cooler than Rear Admiral lower half.

I have seen the filler colour between the stripes around sometimes. In fact it has only been the red medical that I have seen.

 

[Phrontis]

I believe the distinctive colours between the rank stripes on officer's sleeves and on the collar insignia on the naval khaki uniform came into use shortly after World War II and was phased out in the mid-60s, or at the latest with unification.  I'd like to see this come back for more than just doctors, who once again wear the scarlet between their rank stripes.  I reckon the off-white cummerbund worn by some SYOs in ships with Red Sea rig (does anyone wear Red Sea rig anymore?) is a nod to the old distinctive colours designations.

And the nature of the rank stripe on an officer's sleeve or shoulder board also used to indicate whether one was RCN, RCNR, or RCNVR (wavey navy!).  When I started out as a reservist I'd have been proud to wear a wavey stripe to show I was a shad, but I'm not sure this would be a popular move nowadays.

 

[Neill McKay]

And the nature of the rank stripe on an officer's sleeve or shoulder board also used to indicate whether one was RCN, RCNR, or RCNVR (wavey navy!).  When I started out as a reservist I'd have been proud to wear a wavey stripe to show I was a shad, but I'm not sure this would be a popular move nowadays.

I don't think it would fly in the modern, total-force, navy (but I bet a lot of reg. force members would like it!).

The distinguishing cloth is still used in the Coast Guard and merchant marine, although I'm not sure that it's as elaborate a system as the navy once used.  The only specialties that I know to use it are engineers, logistics officers, and instructors (the latter two only in the Coast Guard).

 

[Rhibwolf]

In VDQ RED Sea Rig was the cienture fleche, not that half satin rag we now wear.  it was pretty cool.  I have a Log cummerbund, but its horrible, and i am always looking for an off white one to wear - yes, its a nod, but its allowed too!! 
Dont dental and legal also have the stripe between their ranks?

 

[Phrontis]

Wasn't it orange for dental?  I reckon that wouldn't work today, as, if I'm not mistaken, there are no naval dental officers, dentistry being an army classification.

The dental world should chew it over, but they probably don't have the teeth it.  (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

[Cayuga]

I like the wavey navy look like in the old war movies... Cruel Sea anyone?

 

[Neill McKay]

Wasn't it orange for dental?  I reckon that wouldn't work today, as, if I'm not mistaken, there are no naval dental officers, dentistry being an army classification.

I believe you're right on both counts -- in fact, I think dental services for the RCN and the RCAF were provided by the army years before unification took place.

The dental world should chew it over, but they probably don't have the teeth it.  (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Likely right!

 

[k_murphy]

A question regarding the rank:

Do you address an A/SLt as "Acting Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins" or "Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins". 
I've been told that A/SLt is just a "paper rank" and it is proper to address them as SLt.
But, I've heard many pipes requesting A/SLt Bloggins to here or there.

Is there any convention or are both acceptable terms of address?
???

 

[Rec Centre Toronto CO]

Acting Sub-Lieutenant is the appropiate term. 
To tell the truth, they hate it, as I did, and can't wait to get promoted to get away from it.  One way of inspiring them to work harder...

 

[MARS]

I am one of those who push the "Acting as a written form of address only" POV.  I don't know if it is 100% correct, but I explain it the same way I do other "acting ranks" - they are never spoken, only written.  I then say to whoever is asking:

"See Sgt/PO so-and-so overthere?  The big, mean SOB with the jailhouse tats on his arms and the three rows of ribbons?  He is an Acting-Sgt/PO.  Now, you go over there and address him as 'Acting Sgt so and so' and see how he reacts...I dare you."

 

[dimsum]

IIRC onboard ship they addressed A/SLTs as "Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins, requested (blank)", or at least the ones I sailed on.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

When piped "Acting Sub Lieutenant Bloggins requested Ships Office"...address them as Sir Or Ma'am and you can never go wrong.

 

[medicineman]

The rank is A/Slt because you're not really an SLt yet.  I formally address a 2nd Lt as such, so why shouldn't you be addressed any differently?  Whoever used the analogy of acting NCO rank obviously hasn't been in that place, as it often happens these days.  I was an A/MCpl for 5 months and an A/Sgt for 3 - worse, when I did my JLC (and the vast majority of my coursemates as well), I was formally addressed as and had to identify myself as Acting-Lacking MCpl Me just to rub my nose in it more.  My signature blocks also had A/MCpl or A/Sgt as rank, as (especially the Sgt) I wasn't qualified to that rank yet; I was a different qualification level, which makes a big difference when signing medical chits.  "Acting" is there as a reminder of how big your breeches really are.  For the bread part of the shyte sandwich, be proud of your rank/appointment - snivelling that you don't like the "Acting" bit and dropping it to try to make yourself sound more important is good way to get on alot of people's bad sides.  It's only a (hopefully) temporary, albeit annoying prefix.  Besides, people will expect a little less from you - if you produce better than expected, it makes you look that much better.

MM

 

[J_dog]

The A/Slt rank was created after unification(Feb-1968) to bring the Navy ranks in line with the Army-centric rank structure of unification.

The Navy junior Officer rank structure use to be Mid-Shipmen (same as O/Cdt) then commissioned to Sub-Lieutenant (1- gold bar) followed by Lieutenant (2-gold bars).  The 1.5 gold bar rank were added after unification for the Navy, and therefore Navy had to create a new rank to fit the “new” Army-centric rank structure.

So as a result the Acting-Sub Lieutenant rank was created and filled the 1-gold bar spot and the Sub-Lieutenant rank was given the 1.5-gold bar spot and the Lieutenant rank remained the same with two-gold bars. The Navy also lost the “Executive curl” from the Officer ranks, but it can still be found on the Mess kit. 

In fact, the Navy Officer Mess kit still follows the old rank structure (pre-1968).

Cheers J.

 

[Infanteer]

What a goofy name.  Let's go to Midshipman or Ensign just so we can get rid of that mouthful....

 

[McG]

What a goofy name.  Let's go to Midshipman or Ensign just so we can get rid of that mouthful....

If the rank was created to match the Army's 2Lt, why not get rid of 2Lt & A/SLt?  We have OCdt as the untrained rank and Capt as the 'journeyman level.'  Do we need two ranks (2Lt and Lt), both of which an officer is auto-promoted through, in order to mark the 'apprentice level' officer?

 

[GAP]

If the rank was created to match the Army's 2Lt, why not get rid of 2Lt & A/SLt?  We have OCdt as the untrained rank and Capt as the 'journeyman level.'  Do we need two ranks (2Lt and Lt), both of which an officer is auto-promoted through, in order to mark the 'apprentice level' officer?

I don't know about the CF, but there is a world of difference between  a 2nd and 1st Lt.......

 

[Infanteer]

A good way of putting it MCG, fully recognizing that, at least Army-wise, 2Lt is a training rank (except for ROTP types).  IMHO, they should be retained, and you don't get commissioned until you're done your Phase Training.  I know the Pilot-types have a heartache with that, but maybe they should just have their own commissioning plan.

DP 1 = OCdt/NCdt
Pass DP1 = 2Lt for 6-12 months probabtion at which point your CO can still "Fail" you and the CF can release you for not being leadership material; call it Phase V.
Pass "Phase V" = Lt
3 Years and ATOC = Capt.

Now, the 2Lt and Lt are merely formalities.  I really don't like how they're treated by the system....

 

[Snakedoc]

I personally would prefer the Canadian Navy use the rank 'Ensign' as opposed to 'Acting Sub-Lieutenant' which is always a mouthful to say (or get rid of the rank all together and go back to the old system....with executive curls and all  ;D ).  Which is why formally I've often heard them addressed with the 'Acting' and in most other occasions just 'Sub-Lieutenant' for simplicity sake (something I've heard CO's do as well).  Also Ensign has more meaning behind it as being the junior commissioned officer that carries the ensign in a colour party.

A question about the Naval-Cadet rank as well.  I seem to recall reading somewhere in the NDA that it lists the rank as being Midshipman rather than NCdt.  Anybody know how NCdt came into use rather than Midshipman?