Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[FDO]

I like the full time/part time idea. We could have a part time military, lets call them "Reserves" Then we could have a full time military, we could call them  "Regular". Oh wait I think I've heard of that somewhere.

If you want to work full time and get the full time pay and the full time benefits. Go RegF. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, go Reserve. Correct me if I'm wrong but as a Reserve you sign a contract  stating where you will work and what job you will do as well as what rank you will be paid at. The choice is yours. If you don't like the pay don't sign the contract!

 

[PuckChaser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but as a Reserve you sign a contract  stating where you will work and what job you will do as well as what rank you will be paid at. The choice is yours. If you don't like the pay don't sign the contract!

You are correct, however it's not a contract (that implies DND legally has to employ you). At any time DND can give you 30 days notice and stop your Cl B.

Having been a reservist for nearly 7 years, I took the leap and I won't look back. No more admin headaches, more money, and more opportunity for advancement. I transferred and got lucky enough to stay in the same unit I was employed at Cl B, doing the same job, for more money and actually more leadership responsibilities. I guess I did the reverse of what everyone else does, pull pin for the reserves, get a Cl B and milk the system for Cl B money AND a pension.

 

[gwp]

The "Reserve Pay" of 85% went into effect in 1997.  This link will take you to a transcript of a discussion of the Standing Committee On National Defence and Veterans Affairs on reserve pay

As you know, there is a proposal in front of Treasury Board, which hopefully will be approved relatively soon, that will bring the pay up to 85% of our regular force sailors. Quite frankly, from my understanding from my reservists, they're very comfortable with that 85% because, of course, they do not have the same unlimited liability that our regular force has. They can, for example, in terms of the contracts that are presented to them, decide to terminate their contract whenever they wish, whereas those in the regular force do not have the same ability to do that. So 85% of what the regular force makes is, on balance, from their sense and from our perspective, a reasonable level of pay for them.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/scondva-cpdnac/tra-tem/1998/26031998-eng.asp

This link is a more complete description of Class of Pay.
http://www.vcds-vcemd.forces.gc.ca/dres/cs/index-eng.asp

While the 85% Pay for Cl A and B service is arguable, more important is the benefits for Class B that are different from Class A or C.  i.e. It is wrong to be employed class A 5 days a week to avoid a Class B contract and that should be reported as the individual is being disadvantaged regarding other benefits.

This link is an Obundsman's report on Reserve Benefits or lack of them.

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/rep-rap/sr-rs/rc-str/doc/rc-str-eng.pdf

 

[c_canuk]

I like the full time/part time idea. We could have a part time military, lets call them "Reserves" Then we could have a full time military, we could call them  "Regular". Oh wait I think I've heard of that somewhere.

If you want to work full time and get the full time pay and the full time benefits. Go RegF. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, go Reserve. Correct me if I'm wrong but as a Reserve you sign a contract  stating where you will work and what job you will do as well as what rank you will be paid at. The choice is yours. If you don't like the pay don't sign the contract!

Fair enough, however I think you'll find that if you gave reservists the option of going on Class C, the overwelming majority would take C over B, regardless of the added stipulations of a Class C contract.

I'd also like to see less bureacratic bungling, when you want someone for 3 years, make the contract for three years, don't do what happened to me

1 year contract, got TD for 364 days, Contract gets extended, now I don't qualify for TD, but because my current remaining contract is not longer than one year, I also don't qualify for a move to location that had the contract been made longer than 1 year I would have been entitled for.

don't look me in the face after screwing me like that and saying it's dishonest for me to ask that they put a 1 day break in the contracts so I can still collect TD since I'm not able to get a cost move. Especially after I've been working a month off contract signing class A pay sheets that are held just in case I get injured or something, while I'm unpaid because you couldn't be bothered to have the contract extended on time.

Don't fight my claim for TAA after I am required to vacate the shacks and live at my standard residence 1hr and 10 minutes away.

Dont get pissed off at me for going reg force after I've given you 3 years good service while claiming to support my going on tour while throwing the wrench into ever single opportunity to deploy behind my back, so you can continue to employ someone in a position, that is normally filled by a tech earning spec pay, who earns 15% less and does not qualify for spec pay.


Edited to add:

to further clarify the extention was supposed to be for 3 more years, and I'd spent a month and a half spending an extra 600 a month in fuel commuting while not recieving pay, and did not even start getting TAA for 3 more months after having to fight for it within the local COC

Seriously Guys, if you are a young Class B Reservist looking to make a go of it, CT to the regs, unfortunatly you probably won't get to teach at the schools in the summer anymore, but the lack of bumbling administration and job security make up for it.

Now if I could just get to a field unit when I'm up for posting.

 

[gcclarke]

Fair enough, however I think you'll find that if you gave reservists the option of going on Class C, the overwelming majority would take C over B, regardless of the added stipulations of a Class C contract.

Class C should be reserved only for personnel being deployed. I agree with you hat most people would take Class C over class B, if it is for their regular job at home. However, they should not ever be given that option. But I don't think that an "overwhelming majority" of people currently on Class B would prefer to be deployed at the moment.

Dont get pissed off at me for going reg force after I've given you 3 years good service while claiming to support my going on tour while throwing the wrench into ever single opportunity to deploy behind my back, so you can continue to employ someone in a position, that is normally filled by a tech earning spec pay, who earns 15% less and does not qualify for spec pay.

The notion of anyone getting pissed off because you decide to transfer to the reg force is, in my not so humble opinion, ridiculous. I mean, really, how dare you decide to sign on the dotted line, giving the CF the right to use you and your skills in whatever capacity it deems necessary. How selfish of you! It should be needless to say, but I am being sarcastic. If someone is of that opinion, feel free to discount their opinion as worthless.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm glad I asked this question I've learned a lot.

I'm sure some others would say I gladly take a pay cut and work like a dog to actually be in my home province.I know I would.Same could be said for me and a beancounter getting paid the same overseas.Not fair IMHO however he signed a contract and so did I.

I hear ya.  Maybe ot on the same level but in 13 years I've worked in my home town twice o class B.
Once during the ice storm for a month and now, which was supposed to be a year but cut back to two weeks, now two months with a possibility of longer.

Which brings up a second point.
Yes it takes 6 months to quit a class C contract and only 1 month to quit a class B one but that works both ways. Even though I may sign a 1 year class B, I can be told to find a job in a month.

I cannot be posted anywhere or ordered overseas (Mind you I'd love to go) but being on class B means if I have to work week-ends, I work.  Also subject to duty at 530 in the morning.
If I take a class B in Petawawa I'm also subject to duty. 
If one of my soldiers steps on their dick (or in my case, when I do) the leadership still gets involved only it's  on their time and not the CFs.

Changing pay means changing the way we view training Reservists, but that's another story.

True, maybe it's time we do that though.  This morning an email went out looking for PLQ qualified class A reservists to take a 2 month class B contract in Petawawa. Their job is to help build, run and tear down ranges for one of the battalions there.
Reg force infantry sections doing live fire section and platoon attacks with a reservist class A (well B) MCpl or PLQ Cpl running behind  as ARSO's.
Given the reservists will get nice TD but point being if a reservist can do that job (ARSO for a reg force infantry section live fire) why pay them less?  If their being employed in that role the training difference can't be THAT much.

 

[Haggis]

You are correct, however it's not a contract (that implies DND legally has to employ you). At any time DND can give you 30 days notice and stop your Cl B.

You, as well, can give the CF 30 days (or less if mutually agreed upon) notice to terminate your employment.  The CF can also retain you for up to a year in case of emergency.  (of note is that the CF is also under no obligation to employ or extend you beyond the stipulated end date of your term of employment.)

You are entitled, in writing, to such generally accepted allowances such as leave, TD when away from home, and other such mutually agreed upon considerations as noted in your Statement of Understanding which you are required to sign before commencing any Class B service of over 30 days duration.

Your signed SOU is a legally binding contract between you and the CF.

 

[George Wallace]

Let's not forget, Class B and Class A are both administered through the Reserve Pay System.  Class C, is full Reg Force Pay, administered through the Reg Force Pay Ststem.

Making Class C only applicable to pers Deploying is a Black and White view of the system.  There are Reservists in various 'special' units who are on Class C.  As such, they are subject to the same 'rules' as a Reg Force member, and must go where dictated, and that may not mean AFG.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I've tried to write this at least 5 times now.However ever time it comes off a crude.
I'll try again.

It's time to revamp the reserve system and make them a full deployable force.
Our army is so small we have shown during this conflict that we depend heavily on the reserves.

Let's give them job protection,let's give them on par pay,let's deploy them as the units they are.

They keep saying we need more teeth less tail,HLTA drains resources,well lets start attaching cohesive platoon/troop's to every roto.

I would like to think this would also force all the mess commando's out.Let's face it you know who they are.Maybe setting up a provincial guard where guy's who absolutely no interest in ever deploying can serve their country at home.

It's time for a revamp.

 

[George Wallace]

It's time to revamp the reserve system and make them a full deployable force.
Our army is so small we have shown during this conflict that we depend heavily on the reserves.

Looking at actual figures: the Reg Force Army is just over 20,000; while the Reserves (Army) are just over 16,000.  Currently the Reserves are filling 30 - 40 % of positions on ROTOs.  In some Trades those percentages are even higher.  How do you plan on revamping the Reserves any more to make them deployable?

Let's give them job protection,let's give them on par pay,let's deploy them as the units they are.

I know the Reserves would love more pay, but you have to have the same calibre and dedication across the land as you find in the majority of Reg Force units when it comes to deploying them as formed units.  Some units would be up to the task.  Others are just "junk".

I would like to think this would also force all the mess commando's out.Let's face it you know who they are.Maybe setting up a provincial guard where guy's who absolutely no interest in ever deploying can serve their country at home.

I imagine it would.  Perhaps send them off to the "Veterans Guard".  >

 

[gcclarke]

Let's not forget, Class B and Class A are both administered through the Reserve Pay System.  Class C, is full Reg Force Pay, administered through the Reg Force Pay Ststem.

Making Class C only applicable to pers Deploying is a Black and White view of the system.  There are Reservists in various 'special' units who are on Class C.  As such, they are subject to the same 'rules' as a Reg Force member, and must go where dictated, and that may not mean AFG.

Ok, perhaps not only "for deployments", but at the very least Class C should be reserved for positions within units that do frequently deploy. SOFCOM positions (And not just HQ!), spots on ship, etc. If there isn't a likelihood of being sent on operations, within or outside of Canada, it shouldn't be Class C.

 

[Haggis]

Looking at actual figures: the Reg Force Army is just over 20,000; while the Reserves (Army) are just over 16,000.  Currently the Reserves are filling 30 - 40 % of positions on ROTOs.  In some Trades those percentages are even higher.  How do you plan on revamping the Reserves any more to make them deployable?

As briefed at Army Council last week, the Army Reserve is at present over their establishment of 18,500, at about 22,500.  The overall "cap" on Reserve participation on international ops is 20%.  So, even if some trades are filling upwards of 50% of deployed positions, others are at 1-2% and some zero.  It evens out at around 20%.

I know the Reserves would love more pay, but you have to have the same calibre and dedication across the land as you find in the majority of Reg Force units when it comes to deploying them as formed units.

"More pay" is shortsighted.  It just means you get taxed more when combined with your civvy income.  What really matters is better and more comprehensive benefits.  A dead/disabled Reservist should get EXACTLY the same benefits as a dead/disabled Reg F guy.  After all, the Reservist is losing two jobs.

 

[dapaterson]

As briefed at Army Council last week, the Army Reserve is at present over their establishment of 18,500, at about 22,500.

As the guy who, until a year ago, provided those numbers, I call BS (not on you - I believe it was presented to Army Council - I'm calling the numbers BS). Unless the Army Reserve's parade strength increased by over 3K in a single year (when units were not recruiting), the Land Staff G1 bozos changed the reporting methodology.

The 22500 they report is the total enrolled strength.  The target is based on a parade strength.  Given the poor admin of many Reserve units, we carry literally thousands of folks who are NES or just don't show up (the units don't do the NES paperwork).  Some units have literally dozens of folks on the rolls who have not paraded for a year or more (39 CBG is apparently allergic to paperwork).

In years past, reports would be based on parade strength - those who are actually showing up and being paid - be it A, B or C (and C regardless of whether paid via RPSR or CCPS - yes, RPSR can pay class C).  The Army G1, who until forced almost at gunpoint didn't care about reporting Reserve strengths, are now reporting on everyone enrolled.

The Army's target parade strength for the Reserves is about 18 500.  Not enrolled.  Looks like I'm going to make some calls soon to try to get the Army gripped again.

Where's the "Bozo the clown in uniform with red tabs" icon - time to slap it on the national G1 staff.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Let's not forget, Class B and Class A are both administered through the Reserve Pay System.  Class C, is full Reg Force Pay, administered through the Reg Force Pay Ststem.

Making Class C only applicable to pers Deploying is a Black and White view of the system.  There are Reservists in various 'special' units who are on Class C.  As such, they are subject to the same 'rules' as a Reg Force member, and must go where dictated, and that may not mean AFG.

Reserve Backfill at DART is one good example.

 

[charlesm]

:nod:

DataPerson, I can agree with you on 39 CBG!!

But our unit budgets are based upon Paraded Strength through RPSR. No one will give you a budget based upon enrolled strength.

I know that right now LFC is reviewing every Class "B" position to see if they are on the establishment or done outside of it.

Many Class "B" positions will not be filled this year as they will not post them.

I have been on Class "A" all my time in the service, except when on tour and then I was Class "C".

I would prefer to see 1 pay system first before we start changing contracts. Why do I have to release from the Reg Force after tour to go back to Class "A"?

There should be a difference in pay if someone doesn't want to get deployed oversea's, but that doesn't stop you from getting sent to WATC to teach for a summer or more.

Also how long will TB allow ex-Reg force to Double Dip with a pension and a job on Class "BA"?

 

[PMedMoe]

Also how long will TB allow ex-Reg force to Double Dip with a pension and a job on Class "BA"?

The same amount of time they will allow them to work for PS (or any other job for that matter) and collect a pension.

Double-dipping it may be, but don't forget, they earned that pension by fulfilling a 20 year (or longer) contract.

 

[Infanteer]

The same amount of time they will allow them to work for PS (or any other job for that matter) and collect a pension.

Double-dipping it may be, but don't forget, they earned that pension by fulfilling a 20 year (or longer) contract.

A Reg Force person with 27 years in has also earned that pension - why can't he just start collecting it while he is still serving?

Serving in the military for 20 years and than jumping over to Environment BC is one thing, and understandable (IMO), but serving in the military and than quitting to continue serving in the military is merde.  You're either in or you're out.

 

[Jarnhamar]

:nod:



But our unit budgets are based upon Paraded Strength through RPSR. No one will give you a budget based upon enrolled strength.

Question.
How do (for example)  the 12 solders on class C work up training, 5 on course for a month and 5 away on class B come into play?
Are they considered Parading at the unit? If not that would be 20+ people who would regularly attend but are away and not counted.

If I was a CO I'd probably think twice about sending so many people away if it meant a lower budget.

 

[gcclarke]

A Reg Force person with 27 years in has also earned that pension - why can't he just start collecting it while he is still serving?

Serving in the military for 20 years and than jumping over to Environment BC is one thing, and understandable (IMO), but serving in the military and than quitting to continue serving in the military is merde.  You're either in or you're out.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with someone starting to double dip while still in the reg force. As long as, while doing so, they stop accumulating pensionable time.

 

[McG]

The same amount of time they will allow them to work for PS (or any other job for that matter) and collect a pension.

I @#$ hate double dipping.  In maybe half the cases it provides a positive incentive for retiring full time Regular Force to provide thier time, skill and experience to help develop & bring-along a reserve unit.

In all the other cases, it provides some guy on the way out with more money to fill what probably should be a regular force job & at the same time that individual gets the privilage of never being posted while denying that career management flexibility to the CF.

I personally think the government should not be paying wages (military, Public Servant, or RCMP) while paying a full retirement pension.  You want to work & collect a pension, that's fine but your pension should not raise your take home pay above 100% of the rate the pension is based on.