Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[ark]

Believe me, no one receives "free pay"... ever.
There are always strings attached.

Yeah I know there are strings attached, so that is why I wrote "free" as in there is nothing really free.
I know what justifies the Class B vs Reg force pay difference and I was looking for a similar explanation when it comes to Class B vs Class A as the Class A gets 71% of what Class B gets.

 

[Kiwi99]

Ok, time to ruffle some feathers. I ahve a couple questions that nobody really seems to have an answer for, at least not one I like. 

First, why do we offer three year full time comtracts to reservists anyway?  If they want to work full time, why do the not go reg force?  Seems logical to me.  If you want the same pay and benefits, then go regs and get them. 

Secondly, why is there always such a push to get the reserves on tour?  On roto 11 to Bosnia we had to take a full coy of reservists.  So the soldiers in the battalion that show up every day, go on every exercise and so on, they are forces to miss out.  The same goes for current tours to Astan.  Reg force soldiers miss out as there has to be a certain anmount of reservists who have to deploy.  Again, why does the guy or girl who works full time, miss out.

Just a couple thoughts that had me thinking.  But at the end of the day, same pay means same job which means same workload.

 

[ark]

As for class A and class B paid differently, they are paid the same. Those class A earn PILL, during their RFD time, while the class B earns annual leave and in many units , ETO or CTO for training nights.  As that time is not discretionary at the unit level, it is not guaranteed.

Class B is paid 7 days for 5 days of work + he gets annual leave.
Class A is paid per day of work so for 5 days of work he is paid 5 days + 9% to compensate for leave.

How is that same pay? I know some people who were put on Class A for 4 days/week so that the unit would not have to pay them on Class B which would mean 2 extra days of "free" pay.

 

[armyvern]

There are some valid points  in that Vern. If there is only a NavRes unit nearby and you are a retired medic or AVS tech, there is no position available to you in that unit. I did mention that there is an opportunity to join the PRes though. Just as a PRes takes a rank reduction when they CT, ...

That's not necessarily the case either. If you are PRes and have real-time operational tour experience at an on-par level with the RegF pers of the same trade, you can CT directly to the RegF and suffer NO reduction in rank, qualification level, or pay. It's all about CTing you into the RegF at the rank that your qualifications AND actual work experience deem at a level commesurate with where a RegF pers of similar trade experience and work experience would sit.

Qual levels, as spoken to before, differ vastly in their requirements, thus not all QL6 quald Reservists are equal to QL6 quald Regs in actual "work & knowledge" --- despite perhaps being of the same rank levels (promotions come much faster in the ResF world).

As for your comment about Class A and Class B being paid the same --- name me just ONE Class A pers who gets paid 7 days per week. Please, I'd love to meet them.

Their pay does differ ... substantially. One works 5 and is paid for 7. The other works one works one --- and gets paid only for that one day. That's because they differ in the "other" requirements relating to their "terms of service" (one REQUIRED to show up, do duties, perform shitty Unit taskings/parades; the other is NOT). Just as RegF is REQUIRED to RFD at shitty postings or to deploy on shitty tours ... while B Class are not.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Secondly, why is there always such a push to get the reserves on tour? 

Seems to me that "push" is a demonstrated need.  By all means, prohibit the Res from going on tours.  Hope your Reg buddies on their seventh tour to Afghanistan thank you appropriately. 

 

[aesop081]

Class B is paid 7 days for 5 days of work + he gets annual leave.
Class A is paid per day of work so for 5 days of work he is paid 5 days + 9% to compensate for leave.

How is that same pay? I know some people who were put on Class A for 4 days/week so that the unit would not have to pay them on Class B which would mean 2 extra days of "free" pay.

A class B guy might have to work on those 2 extra days....hes on duty 24/7

a Class A guy is not

I dont know why you dont understand the difference.

 

[armyvern]

Class B is paid 7 days for 5 days of work + he gets annual leave.
Class A is paid per day of work so for 5 days of work he is paid 5 days + 9% to compensate for leave.

How is that same pay? I know some people who were put on Class A for 4 days/week so that the unit would not have to pay them on Class B which would mean 2 extra days of "free" pay.

Yet, I'll point out that NO Class A pers will work those 5 days in one week. Enough with the "free pay" already -- there is NO such thing. And, figure it out -- 7 days per week, less 4 days they worked = 3 days pay saved not 2.

I have still yet to meet an A Class pers who was "reqd/ordered" to work even 4 days per week <--- they can say "no, I'm A Class". But, I know some B Class pers who are ordered to work ... even after having already put in a good 12 hours that day ... or a good 60 hours that week (and that's exactly why they get that "free pay" for those 2 days).

Anyone?? Bueller??

 

[OldSolduer]

KIWI 99
If we didn't have the reservists in 93, 2VP would have had to take full coys from the RCR and other PPCLI bns. That would have seen RegF doing multiple tours in a short time. This is why Reservists are being pushed to go on tours,.
I've worked both sides of the fence, so I'm going to ruffle yours....some Reg Force members (and Reservists) are not fit to go on tour for various reasons, which I won't go into here. The operation requires a backfill, so if a Reservist is qualified....why not?
Also, some Reservists are uniquely qualified....ie CIMIC & PsyOps...why take a Reg Force Officeror NCO, whose skills are needed elsewhere ie in the BG ? CIMIC and Psy Ops are a perfect fit for the Reserves.
If you are working side by side with a Reg Force member, doing the same job on an op taking the same risks....then you should get equal pay.

 

[armyvern]

If you are working side by side with a Reg Force member, doing the same job on an op taking the same risks....then you should get equal pay.

No one here is arguing that ResF members deployed on tours and subject to those same risks should NOT receive the same 100% wage. Rather, I think we ALL agree with that.

And, ResF members DO already receive 100% when operationally deployed. No one has any issues with that.

 

[aesop081]

(and that's exactly why they get that "free pay" for those 2 days).

And when they are required to work saturday and sunday......those "free " days aren't exactly free are they ?

 

[OldSolduer]

Glad to hear that Vern.
In 93, my reserve Cpl was being paid as a Private.....on an operation....jsut wondering if it had sorted itself out.

 

[armyvern]

Glad to hear that Vern.
In 93, my reserve Cpl was being paid as a Private.....on an operation....jsut wondering if it had sorted itself out.

It has. Thankfully. 

 

[armyvern]

And when they are required to work saturday and sunday......those "free " days aren't exactly free are they ?

Which is exactly why I stated can be called in "whenever", duties, parades, shitty weekend taskings etc ...

Far from "free".

 

[ark]

Yet, I'll point out that NO Class A pers will work those 5 days in one week. Enough with the "free pay" already -- there is NO such thing. And, figure it out -- 7 days per week, less 4 days they worked = 3 days pay saved not 2.

I have still yet to meet an A Class pers who was "reqd/ordered" to work even 4 days per week <--- they can say "no, I'm A Class". But, I know some B Class pers who are ordered to work ... even after having already put in a good 12 hours that day ... or a good 60 hours that week.

Anyone?? Bueller??

I have already explained that "free" is not really free. When someone works 4 days/week on Class A the unit can then give a 1/day per week Class A to someone else thus the work of a 5 days/week Class B is done but you do not have to pay for the weekend.

In the cases I have seen, no they were not ordered to work 4 days, it was their choice (or lack of choice) as they needed money and were willing to take anything. But yes they had the choice and I know part of the difference in pay is to have that choice.
Once the Class A signs the pay sheet he is also subject to overtime work so that is no different than Class B logging more hours than a standard week of work.

 

[aesop081]

Once the Class A signs the pay sheet he is also subject to overtime work so that is no different than Class B logging more hours than a standard week of work.

But the Class A guy has to come in in the first place to sign the pay sheet before he does "overtime"....if he doesnt show up, no over time. The Class B guy gets a call at home saturday night saying "get your ass in here" and he doesnt get to say "no".

 

[ark]

And when they are required to work saturday and sunday......those "free " days aren't exactly free are they ?

I do not know if that is a genereal rule but here those on Class B who have to work on weekends or parade on a Tuesday night can take compensatory days.

 

[ark]

But the Class A guy has to come in in the first place to sign the pay sheet before he does "overtime"....if he doesnt show up, no over time. The Class B guy gets a call at home saturday night saying "get your *** in here" and he doesnt get to say "no".

Yup, as I stated, that choice explains in part the pay difference. Keep in mind, the Class A must have a valid reason for not showing up if it is a mandatory training.

 

[aesop081]

Yup, as I stated, that choice explains in part the pay difference.

So why are you still arguing ?

 

[NL_engineer]

2 x 6 weeks is less than 6 months.  Additionally, there are far more OSQs that you will find in the Regular Force than in the PRes.  Throw in job related experience and things are certainly not changing for the Army.  In fact, if you go and read Training Canada's Army you will find that the training delta (between regular force & primary reserve) is a formally established concept.  Even reservists who deploy operationally only receive training to cover the portion of the delta which is deemed specifically relevant to the mission.

MCG, NFLD_sapper was right be it only for the short period of time (last summer) right up to the start of the first 6 month one on or around 10 Sept 2007 (forgot the exact date).

The course was the same for a wile (the res course was extended, at the same time they introduced the 14 week reg course, all the same ttps were covered, just in a different order).  As the reg course is back to 6 months, with a lot more ttps, they are no longer the same.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I do not know if that is a genereal rule but here those on Class B who have to work on weekends or parade on a Tuesday night can take compensatory days.

I believe this is offered (and taken by) reg force members working at reserve units too.

Seems fair, too bad something like this wasn't offered to reg force members at their own bases.