Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[Stoker]

If you have so much time invested in the Navy ..... why don't you do a CT, bite the bullet and go Reg!

I have a friend who was a Res RMS Clerk Sgt.
He CTd to RMS Clerk in the regs and is .... a Sgt - doing the same job with the additional 15% pay hike AND the Housing allowance....

Sigh, like I said in my previous posts, I have my reasons why i'm still in the reserves. If I was to transfer tomorrow, all I would hope to get is recruit school bypass, my LS and time in. I would probally get my PLQ, SLC and ALQ credited. I would have to go back and redo ALL my trades training and i'll be lucky to see my PO's before I get out.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Class A and Class B service is Not equal work

Really?  I perform the exact same job as the 5 reg force Sgts in occupying the exact same chair doing the exact same shifts so care to tell me just what it is about my current tasking and the job I do that is different in any way?

 

[aesop081]

Really?  I perform the exact same job as the 5 reg force Sgts in occupying the exact same chair doing the exact same shifts so care to tell me just what it is about my current tasking and the job I do that is different in any way?

The conditions under which a reservist serves ( A&B class) are nowhere near the same.

 

[Reccesoldier]

The conditions under which a reservist serves ( A&B class) are nowhere near the same.

The work IS equal

 

[Pikache]

Didn't someone already say that RegF gets 15% extra because they don't have a choice of postings?

 

[Jarnhamar]

So if its such a big deal and your already doing the same job with the same pay/deployments....why dont you join the reg force?

Because the reg forces isn't for everyone. Some people like the idea of putting their career on hold, putting the uniform on, doing their part and then going back to their family life.
The reg force is brutal on some relationships and families.

Do you realize how crazy it is for an army spouse to find decent work around a base? Something in their field?

 

[McG]

Haggis this is now changing too for the Army.

As an example:

In the Engineer world the Reg. Force QL3/DP1/Section Member/What ever the flavour of the day is +/- 6 months or so while the P.Res QL3/DP1/Section Member/What ever the flavour of the day is now split into 2 parts of 6 weeks each, and that equals the Reg Force course.

2 x 6 weeks is less than 6 months.  Additionally, there are far more OSQs that you will find in the Regular Force than in the PRes.  Throw in job related experience and things are certainly not changing for the Army.  In fact, if you go and read Training Canada's Army you will find that the training delta (between regular force & primary reserve) is a formally established concept.  Even reservists who deploy operationally only receive training to cover the portion of the delta which is deemed specifically relevant to the mission.

The work IS equal

It is equal in your office today.  Unfortunately, that office is not a microcosm of the CF.  Those other Sgt's working around you will likely have several OSQs  which will qualify them to be employed in a whole host of tasks for which you will rarely find a reservist qualified to conduct.  Those Sgt's will likely take see several postings over the 10 to 15 years that a reservist can choose to sit at the same job.

What does the 15% pay for?

• typically higher Op & tasking tempo
• Often unpredictable & late notice Op & tasking deployments
• surrendering the freedom to choose postings
• surrendering the freedom to get out of undesirable tasks through 30 days notice
• Resultant hardship on families
• Not being your own career manager
• typically greater job experience
• typically higher job qualifications
• typically broader job qualifications

Now, before anyone jumps in here to point out the exceptions, remember that pay rates are not based on the exceptions within trade & rank.  Pay is based on what is the norm for a given rank & occupation.  At the same time, there may very well be merit in arguing that some Class B jobs should be Class C due to the nature of the work.  I could accept that, but it becomes a case by case issue (and no longer the broad brush approach).  I could also accept an argument that there are certain hardships/frustrations unique to the typical full time Class B (3 year terms) which are not shared by the regular force (like carrying the burden of pre & post ex drills).  Maybe one should make a case for a Class B+ at 90% + pay?

We need a flexible system where the career manager gets to decide if a position is Class B or not.  That way, he could take a Regular or Reservist who has just came back from a bad tour and give him a year with the 4th Bn Foreskin Fusileers, or whatever.  The B occupying that position can slide into a tasking elsewhere or be made redundant.

We would probably be better served by a system that allowed for a more rapid & seamless transition for soldiers moving between the Regular Force and the Reserves (either way).  This would require that the training delta be eliminated (same courses for all) or a mechanism be created to rapidly ramp-up a reservist on the missed Delta.

 

[d53642]

I guess when command made going to Scotian a mandatory event, they didn't count on the Minister being a pin cushion >. I guess i'll wade in on this one. I'm a reservist who have been full time for the last 14 years, over five of them been Class C. I have the same responsibilities as my regular force counterpart and I am getting Class C, yet another person who is serving next to me say in a OJT billet is getting 85% or in a shore billet like in the BOR doing the same job as the reg force clerk. Whatever happened to equal pay for equal work. As a Class C, I sign a contract that says I can be deployed anywhere the CF tells me to go.  My opinion is that if you wear the uniform, you should be prepared to go ANYWHERE the military tells you to go,that should be the same for Class B. People are always telling me join the reg force, I have my reasons not wanting to join. I think there should be some sort of restructuring, say having a active duty reserve vice a inactive duty reserve like the US military. With the manpower shortages we have now, the forces need the reserves and we shouldn't be utilized as a cheap source of labour. Remember all the years when we were paid 65%.

Being a reg force clerk at a reserve unit and one of the bigger ones and more active NRD's in NAVRES, I make more money as a LS than my MS reserve counter part does. Even though we do, do the same work they also get TD for their contract because both the clerks are from Ontario. They also get the option to end their contract at anytime were if I don't care for the posting I am stuck with it.

I am not saying reserves don't do the same amount of work, I see a lot of reserves that work harder than some reg force people, but if they want equal pay then everything should be equal across the board which includes active postings and fulfilling any contracts they sign or suffer some sort of penalty.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

The work IS equal

In a case like the one you described earlier, then yes it is.  I agree 100%.  I'm not sure that it is for a Cl A soldier though.  (I say that having been one myself).

Didn't someone already say that RegF gets 15% extra because they don't have a choice of postings?

Someone said that, but I believe they were stating their opinion vice CF or Government policy.  In fact I have yet to see the official policy statement on the pay difference, and would be curious to do so.

MY opinion is as follows:

I believe that the gripe the guys quoted in the original article had was that they were working on Cl B directly alongside Reg F pers.  They were therefore doing equal work for unequal pay.  I don't think there's all that much wrong with having a separate (unequal) pay scale for Cl A and maybe even for some short-term Cl B personnel.  I think that what these guys were saying though was that if they were going to be employed for long periods as an alternative to posting in a Reg F member that they should be paid accordingly.  I.E. their contracts should be Cl C vice Cl B.

In other words, if you want to have the flexibility to only parade one night a week, then maybe you aren't deserving of the same pay scale as the Reg F.  I think the same could be said if you want to go on a two week course and then go directly home.  On the other hand, if you want to go in day after day after day (for years in some cases) and work in the same office/sail on the same ship/work on the same aircraft/crew the same vehicle as your Reg Force peers, and if the Reg Force agrees to sign you to a contract to do so, then maybe you should get paid the same way as they do.  YOUR LIABILITY SHOULD ALSO BE THE SAME, AT LEAST FOR THE PERIOD IN QUESTION (and would be, as soon as you signed a Cl C contract). My solution to the problem would be to offer more Cl C and less Cl B contracts.  The only problem with that is, of course, money, and which budget things come out of.  Maybe that should be the focus of this discussion.

 

[garb811]

This is a topic where no-one is going to agree but...

The fact is, all kinds of people do equal work for unequal pay depending on their individual circumstances.  For instance, people who work night shifts get paid a shift premium to do the exact same work those on the day shift do but they get compensated for working when they'd normally be sleeping.  Should the day worker complain that they are being unfairly compensated because their counterpart on the night shift is making more money for doing the same work or should they recognize the fact that the actual conditions of work are not the same, notwithstanding the fact that the work is essentially the same?

I don't think some Res F pers understand the consequences and turmoil created by an involuntary posting, not just on the individual but more importantly on the family.  This is particularly true when it is to a location the family has no desire to move to, how do you compensate for the turmoil and stress that that causes in a family?  What about the effect on a spouse with a professional career of being posted to someplace like Goose Bay, Gander or Wainwright...tell her to go work at Canex if she wants to work?  What about a spouse who started educational upgrading only to end up being posted before it could be completed?  I've seen a spouse be 3/4 of the way through her RN degree get posted to a location without a University she could transfer to because her spouse was promoted and posted.  She was very bitter about that and the stress that caused took them to the edge of divorce.  The last I heard, 10 years on she still has not completed her degree, so much for that investment of time, money and effort.  

I'm sorry but the ONLY thing I'm reading from most of the "full time" Reservists in this thread is the reason they don't want to go Reg Force for 100% of the pay is because they are unwilling to make the personal, professional and/or familial sacrifices that come with doing that.  This is something that we in the Reg Force do, or are willing to do, every day of our career.  I don't begrudge you your choice, nor the fact that doing this essentially allows you to do military service on your terms, but please, do not begrudge me for being compenstated a bit for being willing to do my military service on the CF's terms.

 

[Dissident]

Often unpredictable & late notice Op & tasking deployments

This is also SOP for reservists. We may be able to say no, but who wants to pass up on basic training or trades course?

And I had a pretty short notice for TF1-07.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

This is something that we in the Reg Force do, or are willing to do, every day of our career.  I don't begrudge you your choice, nor the fact that doing this essentially allows you to do military service on your terms, but please, do not begrudge me for being compenstated a bit for being willing to do my military service on the CF's terms.

I don't begrudge you, and to my mind you've raised a valid point.  However, as I said before, I'd still be interested to see the official explanation for the pay difference.  Can anyone confirm that this is the official rationale?

 

[garb811]

This is also SOP for reservists. We may be able to say know, but who wants to pass up on basic training or trades course?

And I had a pretty short notice for TF1-07.

No offense but you could have said "no" to TF1-07.  While away on task I got 7 days notice I was being deployed.  By the time I got back from task I had 4 days with my family before I got on the plane.  I didn't have the option of saying "no".

 

[Dissident]

While away on task I got 7 days notice I was being deployed.  By the time I got back from task I had 4 days with my family before I got on the plane.  I didn't have the option of saying "no".

Yup, that sucks the big one.

No offense but you could have said "no" to TF1-07.

Indeed, I could have. And I know some people have pulled the pin at some very inopportune times (for the CF).

I'm not arguing that reservist should make the extra 15% with anyone here. There is indeed a whole other level of commitment associated with being a reg force member vice a PRes, one that is worthy of extra compensation.

And even if you don't use it, the reality of the big red militia button:"I'm not going" is that it does lower the stress level significantly.

All I was saying was: Last minute taskings and training is not the exclusivity of the reg force. Sure, you can say no in the reserve. But if you want to be taken seriously, be seen as a reliable troop and eventually get to the higher levels of leadership, you will suck it up and go. At the cost of familly, friends and civy work. Seen it. Been there, done that.
 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There are lots of very good and valid points being raised here, on all sides.  I wanted to raise a few points, some of which may have already been covered in the past 7 pages.  A reservist can be employed in Class A, Class B, Class B (A) and Class C employment.  Obviously, Class C is equal to Reg Force pay and benefits, in a Reg Frce position.  Class B employment is for any temporary full time Reserve employment.  Class B (A) employment is a full time position within the Primary Reserve.  Even those mbrs on Class B (A) are still serving under different TOS than a Reg Frce mbr. 

Reg Frce and Class C service = Anytime, anywhere.  Class B/B(A) = Anytime, anywhere (in Canada only, and I can't be posted.  I get to pick where I live and what unit I serve in).  Class A = If and when I can or do make it.

The terms and conditions of service are the difference.  Most of the focus is on Reservists working side by side with Reg Frce people, doing similar or equal work but for 15% less pay.  Sure, I'll agree to that, same hours, same work.  But, IMO, thats where the similarity ends.  Scenario, 2 Supply Tech Sgts are working at unit X.  1 is Reg, 1 is Class B.  Now, a position needs be filled immediately at KAF or CM for a Supply Sgt and Unit X is tasked to fill it.  Who is deploying?  Who is going home to pack?  That, to me, is the difference.  IF a Reservist on Class B gets 100% of the pay, they should also be prepared to serve with the exact same TOS and deployment potential as their Reg Frce comrades.  You can't have the best of both worlds.

 

[armyvern]

We don't paint ships down south anymore Vern :'(. Your right it is a choice. To tell you the truth if we still only made 65% perhaps i'd be happier.  Since we have been getting the 85% and now 100% for Class C ,I still think we should in the case of class B get that extra 15%, does that make me greedy?

Yep, because I'll guarantee you that IF Reservists who are NOT subject to the exact same things we are (taskings/tours/ability to say "no" to postings for myriad of reasons) start receiving the same pay that I receive while not being able to make those same "choices" and "refusals" ... then I'll be bicthing for MORE pay ... to make up for the "more" that I am subjected to and the "choices" that I do not receive like they do. And, the circle continues ...

And, it's time to go Army if you ain't painting boats in Bermuda anymore!!   >

 

[armyvern]

Scenario, 2 Supply Tech Sgts are working at unit X.  1 is Reg, 1 is Class B.  Now, a position needs be filled immediately at KAF or CM for a Supply Sgt and Unit X is tasked to fill it.  Who is deploying?  Who is going home to pack?  That, to me, is the difference. 

The similarities don't just stop there in the Sup world ... there's a thread in here somewhere denoting the vast differences in what a Sup Tech job within a Res Unit entails and what a Sup Tech job entails in the RegF world; they are worlds apart. Most of the ResF Units Sup work (ie disposal processing to CADC, contracting, ITAR etc is done for them by the RegF support base and the Sup Techs employed at that support base) ... ResF Sup Techs are strictly limited (to one profile) in terms of what they can and can not do on the Supply system and in the Supply system.

The ResF Sup Tech in that ResF Unit would be doing the same job as a RegF Sup Tech posted to that ResF Unit, but they are doing nothing close (nor as diversified) to what RegF Sup Techs are doing daily on RegF bases as part of daily workload.

 

[Stoker]

Being a reg force clerk at a reserve unit and one of the bigger ones and more active NRD's in NAVRES, I make more money as a LS than my MS reserve counter part does. Even though we do, do the same work they also get TD for their contract because both the clerks are from Ontario. They also get the option to end their contract at anytime were if I don't care for the posting I am stuck with it.

I am not saying reserves don't do the same amount of work, I see a lot of reserves that work harder than some reg force people, but if they want equal pay then everything should be equal across the board which includes active postings and fulfilling any contracts they sign or suffer some sort of penalty.

I doubt if those clerks get TD. The only way they would get TD is that they are there on course or TD'ed there to fill a temporary critical billet. If we as a reservist get posted, we don't get TD. I have a question for you, does that MS do the same work as you? Is that MS clerk in charge of you? Do you write that MS PER? Now yes the MS can put in notice to cut his/her contract, usually with 30 days notice, however the military can say no and keep you there(highly unlikely) if you are over 180 days Class B. If you as a regular force clerk wants to get out, you can put in your notice as well, I don't know about 30 days but you can leave as well.

 

[sjm]

I don't mind the 85% pay, but it would be nice to get payed for all the free Class A time performed by many of us.  With the added burden of the new pension it gets a bit tight at times but hey what can you do.  I wasn't planning on living long enough to collect a pension anyway, now I have to plan for the future.

The leave issue mentioned on the first page of this thread is a bit misleading.  Any accumulated leave over the span of a contract - be it 180 days or 3 years, must be used before the end of the contract unless your next contract is with the same employer and they let you continue to accumulate.

If I need the extra money, I'll take another tour.  I'm looking kind of pale anyway and I found the dry heat made my aching joints feel a bit better.

The system here in Ottawa seems to easing away from Class Bs and hiring "Contractors" starting at $300 per diem for the absolute lowest rated PS contractor position; I'll take one of those thanks.

Back to the job protection issue.  NDHQ/DND is one of the worst employers when it comes to job protection for Reservists going on tour.  I had an agreement in place before I left and when I came back it seemed all was forgotten.  The CFLC apparently doesn't include the CF.   But I have a history of admin nightmares following me all around the world.

 

[armyvern]

Now yes the MS can put in notice to cut his/her contract, usually with 30 days notice, however the military can say no and keep you there(highly unlikely) if you are over 180 days Class B. If you as a regular force clerk wants to get out, you can put in your notice as well, I don't know about 30 days but you can leave as well.

Here's a big difference in your above scenario that you fail to make mention of:

If the ResF member puts in his 30 days notice to get out of a contracted posn they no longer want to serve in -- he will get out of the particluar contract, BUT he still has a job in the ResF and can STILL sign another contract for another BClass posn somewhere that he wants/chooses to.

The RegF pers putting in their notice -- has NO more job. They are RELEASED.

That is absolutely NOT the case with a ResF pers putting in 30 days notice to get out of a BClass contract etc.

That's one hell of a difference to be overlooking, and actually only serves as one more "substantiating reason" for that 15% difference in pay between the two.

Apples/Oranges.