• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Woman stranded in Kenya sues

PMedMoe said:
Enhanced Driver's Licence.  It has the RFID chip in it so that one can travel (by road only) to the U.S. without a passport.

My comment had nothing to do with the fact that she is suing the government.  Just pointing out the MSM's typical lack of research.

I have no issues with her being compensated for funds out of pocket and a small personal amount.

Thanks for the EDL clarification.  We have a similar thing in BC - I've just never connected the acronym with the words before.

We are also in agreement with what the compensation should be - as I've said earlier - $2.5 Mil is an opening bid.

I wish I had confidence that the courts will actually make a sensible decision in this case (IE - out of pocket expenses plus a SMALL amount of compensation) - but given their record in this kind of dispute, I doubt it.

I predict she'll be given an outlandish amount of compensation - the peanut gallery will jump on the amount and loudly decry the payment of it, and in the uproar will be lost the fact that the government screwed up, and the citizen deserved SOME compensation.

 
. . . It was up to her to ensure her passport was current and up to date - that includes the picture. . . .

Her passport was up to date.

http://www.ppt.gc.ca/support/faq.aspx?lang=eng&id=4005
Frequently asked questions
My appearance has changed. What should I do?

Although it is not mandatory, we do recommend that you obtain a new passport if your appearance has changed substantially, even if your passport is still valid. The intent of the photo is to accurately identify the person presenting his or her passport to border officials and prevent travelers from experiencing difficulties when travelling outside of Canada.

As to whether a passport photo looks like the holder - that's a very subjective standard - and the answer could be different depending on the person looking at the photo, the light in which the document is read and compared to the person, the perspective from which the border agent is looking at the person or whether the person is wearing different glasses/clothes from his photo.  A photo on a piece of identification that bears only passing resemblance to the individual is not an unusual phenomenon - though if the photo is flattering, the subject is usually satisfied that it looks like him/her.

I dug out my expired passports and the individual in the photos varies widely in some of them - even in some that were isssued consecutively.  I never thought that my appearance had changed that significantly back then.  The last time I had my passport renewed it took three times for them to accept the photo.  The first two times (all done by an experienced pro photographer who knew the guidelines) they were rejected because they said it did not meet the guidelines, though we were never able to find the faults that they said existed.  The third time, before I submitted the application, I had the photos reviewed by a friend who worked at the local passport office (though it was not part of her job).  Her main comment other than saying the photos looked acceptable was "that doesn't look anything like you".

Though $2.5m may seem like a overly greedy sum, in most cases the amount is not solely about compensation of direct losses.  It should be noted that in civil actions the only punishment is the award of money.  The government could say it's sorry but what does it really mean.  In dealing with a bureaucracy (as with a  business) the only sure way to get the attention of someone who has wronged you is to make it cost them money.  Unless there is a threat of tangible punishment there would (IMO) be little incentive to conduct a proper investigation, correct any past wrongs and put in place protocols to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

As an added note, while reviewing my expired passports, I noticed a few Kenyan entry and exit stamps.  Though some have commented that it was the Kenyan authorities who arrested her, my understanding of the circumstances (according to media accounts and thus far not refuted by the Canadian government) is that this woman's identity was first questioned by an airline employee and the Kenyan authorities only arrested her after Canadian officials said she was lying.  (The DNA testing was not the Canadian High Commission's idea, it was the accused woman who argued for its use as proof of her identity)  (My experience at Nairobi JKIA is a few years old, so may be outdated)  Depending on where this occurred in the airport (you had to check in at a couple of places) she 'may' have already passed Kenyan passport (exit) control who would have already accepted her passport and stamped it on the same page as the entry stamp.  Big, big problems if you don't have an entry stamp when you are trying to leave.
 
"A Canadian woman stranded for almost three months in Kenya over false claims that she was an impostor is now suing Ottawa for $2.5 million for her ordeal.


21/08/2009 6:22:32 PM



Woman who was detained in Kenya suing Ottawa
View more Sympatico / MSN videosGo to CTV.ca





Suaad Hagi Mohamud speaks at a press conference in Toronto on Friday, Aug. 21, 2009.

CTV.ca News Staff

Lawyers for Suaad Hagi Mohamud are also asking for a public inquiry and apology from the federal government that Mohamud says "let her down."

"I don't care about the money," Mohamud told a Toronto news conference Friday. "I'm only going to court so this never happen to another Canadian citizen."

Mohamud, 31, finally arrived home in Toronto last Saturday after being stranded for three months in Kenya, where she had been visiting her mother. She had been barred from leaving the African nation after authorities there said she did not resemble her four-year-old passport photo.

Mohamud produced several other forms of identification to prove her identity, including her Ontario driver's licence, her health card, social insurance card and a Canadian citizenship certificate.

But the Canadian High Commission in Nairobi agreed she was an impostor, voided her Canadian passport, and handed her over to Kenyan authorities for prosecution on charges of identity theft.

She spent nine days in jail, which she called "horrible." She slept on the floor, and children were locked up with their mothers.

"One lady had blood on her hand. They said it was blood from the person she killed," she said. "I was afraid. I couldn't sleep."

Only a DNA test that proved she was related to her 12-year-old son in Toronto was finally able to confirm Mohamud was who she said she was. She returned to Toronto Saturday and was reunited with her son, Mohamed Hussein.

"What would have happened if my son had come with me to Kenya?" Mohamud wondered Friday. "What would have happened if I didn't have a son, or something that could vouch for who I am?"

Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan has said the Canadian Border Services Agency is working on a report detailing how Mohamud came to be detained in Kenya. On Sunday, he said he would wait to read the report before deciding whether to award Mohamud compensation.

An inquiry must be called to investigate whether Mohamud's race and culture played a role in how she was treated, said one of Mohamud's lawyers, Julian Falconer. Falconer represented Maher Arar in his lawsuit against Ottawa.

"If a Caucasian person had been in Suaad's position in Kenya, would she have received the callous and reckless treatment she did?" he said.

"We don't know the answer. We need someone to look at it and answer that question, because frankly, I find it hard to believe that a white, Anglo-Saxon person in her position would have been treated the same way."

The statement of claim alleged that embassy officials "deliberately and-or negligently" failed to properly conduct an investigation into Mohamud's identity.

It also alleges Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney and Van Loan failed to respond to the situation when they became aware of the case. "



I just love it when these people decide to sue for x amount of dollars and then say it isn,t about the money.  If you are setting a dollar amount then it is about the money.  While I don,t dispute the fact she was likely treated unfairly don go making stupid statements' you want 2.5 mil


 
here, we, go!  Anyone else shocked by this?  Show of hands?  Beuller?
 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090819/kenya_passport_090819?hub=MSNHome

Diplomat involved in passport fiasco back in Canada

Updated Wed. Aug. 19 2009 5:24 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

The diplomat who rejected a Canadian woman's passport in Kenya, leaving her stranded in the country for three months until a DNA test finally proved her identity, is back in Ottawa, according to a report.

The Toronto Star reported Wednesday that Liliane Khadour -- the Canadian diplomat who told Kenyan authorities that Suuad Hagi Mohamud was not the person she said she was -- has returned after her posting in Kenya ended.








More on link

 
She was in jail for 8 days.
Our Hong Kong veterans were also in prison, and used as slave labour. Many died.
They received 18 dollars for each day of imprisonment from Ottawa. And they had to wait almost 60 years for it!
I am not suggesting a similar payment formula for this lady. It's just for comparison to the amount she is asking.
 
mariomike said:
She was in jail for 8 days.
Our Hong Kong veterans were also in prison, and used as slave labour. Many died.
They received 18 dollars for each day of imprisonment from Ottawa. And they had to wait almost 60 years for it!
I am not suggesting a similar payment formula for this lady. It's just for comparison to the amount she is asking.

The two cases are not remotely similar, mariomike.

As much as I agree our Hong Kong vets got the shaft - inserting their case into this discussion is a red herring.
 
I agree, Roy.
As are the cases of Donald Marshall and David Milgard. Marshall was in prison for 11 years and received $200,000 and "a monthly stipend for the rest of his life." Milgard, on the other hand, received $10 million for just over half that time.
I only mention them because there are few, if any, cases such as hers to compare to.

Correction. It looks like Milgaard actually served 23 years. Sorry for the misinformation above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Milgaard
 
Actually - there are probably thousands of cases to compare hers to. 

All those people who had problems of whatever kind whilst in foreign countries and were helped out by the local embassy or consulate.  I haven't done any research - but I imagine that most cases are amicably and favourably resolved - I don't think this woman's experience is in any way the "norm".  Nor do I think that her experience is the result of any nefarious "policy" within DFAIT.

I DO think, however, that an official of the Government of Canada "screwed up" in this case - and that she is therefore entitled to reimbursement of expenses incurred, and SOME compensation.

Blackadder16 brings up the point of "punitive" damages being awarded.  Although I'm sure he's quite correct regarding the legal precedent for such awards - I'm not sure that I agree punitive damages are applicable unless it can proved that the official in question was following an established policy.

However - what I think doesn't really matter, does it.  I'm just a simple cabinetmaker, not a lawyer or judge.
 
mariomike said:
I agree, Roy.
As are the cases of Donald Marshall and David Milgard. Marshall was in prison for 11 years and received $200,000 and "a monthly stipend for the rest of his life." Milgard, on the other hand, received $10 million for just over half that time.
I only mention them because there are few, if any, cases such as hers to compare to.

Fair enough to say they didn't have good negotiating lawyers? I couldn't agree more with everything Roy said in his last post above.

You've got to remember, legal eagles queue up for cases like this, and they are the ones that advice the victims of these circumstances to sue, knowing far too well that if they win, there is a hefty pay cheque in it for them.
 
ruckmarch said:
Fair enough to say they didn't have good negotiating lawyers?

They both seem to have had heavy hitters.
Milgaard had Hersh Wolch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hersh_Wolch
Donald Marshall had Clayton Ruby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Ruby
 
I squirt accross borders like grass through a goose but people who look like me, talk like me, are my age, live where I do, and don't look indigent have a very low probability of nefarious activities.  That cannot be said of some other geographic regions.  Whether it is racial profiling or just playing the odds is certainly a question.  Perhaps the government should have a system of identity verification to back up negative decisions on a timely basis.  Why don't they just retain the fingerprints in a closed file for backup?  As others have suggested there may have been more than simply a poorly matched photo but we don't know this at this time.  I think the lady should be compensated for economic loss only.  I get my feelings hurt by bureaucrats regularly and it hasn't made me a millionaire.

 
Dennis Ruhl said:
I squirt accross borders like grass through a goose but people who look like me, talk like me, are my age, live where I do, and don't look indigent have a very low probability of nefarious activities. 

I wonder if this is how cops in major cities think, when they are doing patrol? Most of the time, it's the ones that you least expect, that end up doing something stupid.

Personal....I am cautious of everyone, even the ones that look like me. One would be stupid to think because someone looks like you, sounds like you, that you are safe in their hands.

Those that gave their money to Madorch and Earl Jones are a living testimony of that.
 
ruckmarch said:
Personal....I am cautious of everyone, even the ones that look like me. One would be stupid to think because someone looks like you, sounds like you, that you are safe in their hands.

I suspect immigration issues involving lily-white small town Albertans are a bit on the rare side.  I've known other lily-white Albertans marry lily-white Americans and assorted not-so-white Asians and they are all treated like they have dengue fever.  There is no discrimination.

 
The lawsuit names as defendants Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, and three of his department's diplomats, including Ms. Khadour.

The notice also cites as defendants Citizenship Minister Jason Kenney and Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan, who is responsible for the CBSA.

Mr. Kenney and Mr. Cannon knew of Ms. Mohamud's predicament as early as June, the notice says. It also notes that, as late as July 23, the Foreign Affairs Minister was expressing doubts to reporters about whether she was a genuine Canadian.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/woman-stranded-in-kenya-sues-ottawa-for-25-million/article1260009/


Note there are two government ministries involved here, Foreign Affairs and CBSA.
Post 9/11 CBSA trumps Foreign Affairs. CBSA as an operating policy doesn't want to appear any less rigid on security than the Americans. An "Open border" and trade depend on it.
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
I suspect immigration issues involving lily-white small town Albertans are a bit on the rare side.  I've known other lily-white Albertans marry lily-white Americans and assorted not-so-white Asians and they are all treated like they have dengue fever.  There is no discrimination.

May be not immigration issues, but there is a lot of other scary stuff that goes on in small town/s Canada that scares the crap out of me.

Things like grow-ops, child abduction, prostitution and shootings. Take Woodstock ON for example recently, now that is a small lily-white town as you so eloquently put it.
 
It seems the consular staff didnt make much effort to
verify her passport and identity as all her information
is on file  at Passport Canada - photo, commercial
photographer, guarantor, her two references,
information that only she would know.

The Auditor Generals report of 2005 indicates these people
get very little training and most likely cant tell the
difference between a true document and a counterfeit.

* Consular staff do not consistently receive the same
formal training and qualification as domestic examiners.
Their passport training typically amounts to two days,
compared with the four weeks of classroom training and
twelve-week mentoring period provided for examiners in
Canada.

 
baccalieu said:
It seems the consular staff didnt make much effort to
verify her passport and identity as all her information
is on file  at Passport Canada - photo, commercial
photographer, guarantor, her two references,
information that only she would know.

The Auditor Generals report of 2005 indicates these people
get very little training and most likely cant tell the
difference between a true document and a counterfeit.

* Consular staff do not consistently receive the same
formal training and qualification as domestic examiners.
Their passport training typically amounts to two days,
compared with the four weeks of classroom training and
twelve-week mentoring period provided for examiners in
Canada.

I don't doubt that for one second. Perhaps the whole training system for them needs to be revamped somehow, so they are all on the same page and working in unison?

Two days on passport training sounds less, considering some of the hidden information/tighter security now being put onto passports these days after 9/11
 
Back
Top