Would you enlist in the US Marines if it were open to Canadians?

[1feral1]

Don't you know that is a law in Canada about that; a canadian citizen can't joint another military forces. They must serve in Canada because we have a military forces too. An y think it's the same for any of those country who have military forces.

Mate, who ever told you this does not have a single clue about reality. I am Canadian and a former member of the CF (served from 1976 to 1995), and I have over 10 yrs service here in Australia where I have met other Canadians, Britains, Americans, Newzealanders, South Africans, Fijians, and others who are proudly serving here in Australia. All citizens from other countries.

There is so such law as you seem to suggest.

However one must apply for citizenship within 90 days of being elegible, thats all. Yes and you can keep your citizenship from your country of origin too.


Regards,

Wes

 

[Gunner]

Sorry, I don't have a reference (US DoD statistics).

The number of foreign nationals enlisting in the U.S. military is dropping, even though service now provides a fast track to American citizenship, an Associated Press review of military data shows.  The decrease in non-citizen enlistees, who hail from countries such as the Philippines, Mexico, Nigeria and Germany, has hit all branches of the armed services, which are struggling with recruitment as the U.S. presence in Iraq passes the two-year mark.  The decline surprised immigration and military experts, who had expected that green-card-holders who might otherwise wait years to become Americans would have jumped at the citizenship offer President Bush extended nearly three years ago.  The annual number of non-citizen enlistees has fallen 20 percent from fiscal year 2001 - the last full year before the changes - to fiscal year 2004, according to military data. Much of the decline, from 11,829 to 9,477 recruits, came last year.  By comparison, annual enlistments among citizens dropped 12 percent, from 264,832 to 232,957 recruits.  President Bush pitched citizenship not as a selling point but as a reward for service. Last year, more than 7,500 people (already in uniform) gained citizenship through the military.  In July 2002, President Bush ordered automatic citizenship eligibility for foreign nationals on active duty who joined on or after Sept. 11, 2001 (citizenship also was granted to those who died in war and their families). In November 2003, President Bush signed legislation that let all non-citizens apply for citizenship after one year of service, rather than three. 

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Just to shed some light on your statement, you still need to have a green card to be able to join the US military.  You can't just walk into the country and join the military.  The Dept of defense or the immigration service will not sponsor people for a green card just to join the military.  The executive order signed by President Bush to naturalize all resident aliens in the military doesn't change this fact.  The order was actually signed in July 2002.  This order provides a fast track to citizenship and waives the formerly required three years of residency for active duty military personnel.  Currently, you need only serve for one year before one becomes eligible for citizenship using the fast track.  Just thought I'd make the point.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Hack]

NO NO NO NO  -------------    Are the values espoused by the US Armed Forces the same as those of Canadians ??????????  -- NO NO NO NO

Although I understand the devotion that American's would have to their own great nation, I cannot see why a Canadian citizen, especially one who truly believes he/she epitomises the common values of the Canadian forces and Canadian people, would want to serve in the USA.

If you're truly committed to the ideals of defending freedom of choice, democracy, equality, and legitimacy, why would you want to serve for the US War Machine

I certainly do not assert that all members of the US Armed Forces or that all members of the American public are in support of war or the current directive of the US Armed Forces - but I no one can disagree that the United States has failed to(especially recently) follow international law.  America once proudly served the cause of freedom and championed a world where every nation would work to be free from imperialistic threat. Why then can they afford to so callously act as part of a narrow coalition based on fraudulent evidence, torture and humiliate captives who they refuse to call POW's, and still attempt to force other countries (North Korea) by threat of force, to follow international arms treaties.  America has refused to listen to the world and yet makes the same demands of many other nations.

I'm not here to USA bash, but I am here to say that our values are not represented by their forces.  If thats your idea of freedom, then by all means defend it. But I think we stand for something different in Canada,  and we've established that time and time again.
The US Military is a tool of the American government, and a tool can be made to do whatever its owner wants it do do


The question is,  who is your owner, and how will they put you to work

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not here to USA bash

Really, you are not doing a good job of presenting it.  Keep it up and you'll find the door quickly.

but I am here to say that our values are not represented by their forces.    If thats your idea of freedom, then by all means defend it. But I think we stand for something different in Canada,   and we've established that time and time again.

I'll say again, when it comes to the basics, you aren't going to find two countries closer together than the US and Canada - and I'm not talking about specific policies (which don't define "values" - if that was the case, what would the Gomery Commission make us?)

 

[Hack]

Neo-Socialist?          wtf?!

I'm not a socialist just because I believe in peace.    War should be the last step,  not the first one.


Do you remember what the justification for war in Iraq was?  GW Bush did NOT say "we're going to save the Kurds,  we're going to instill democracy"  He said 'Osama and Saddam are linked' and that 'Iraq has thousands of tonnes of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons' The UN weapons inspector had cleared Iraq before the invasion,  but he attacked nonetheless.
The supposed evidence of the US Gov didnt even exist!!!

So NOW the war is about democracy, NOW the war is about 'legitimate government'????       
Would congress have authorized hundreds of billions of dollars if that was the point?  Of course not      GW Bush created a threat to America,  and attacked that threat.   

If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,  why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.

The point of my post was this:  America's armed forces have been used for goals that are not in tune with the ideals that Canada has long stood for. Canada was not born of a revolution, we dont have a violent past, we dont have the need to constantly be at war.
Do you want to see the CF in the role that the American armed forces are in?    Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
No-one wants to attack us,  because we dont attack them. 
Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.

We can still be close friends and disagree on things,  and that IS where Canada presently stands.


If you alloted the 300 billion spent on the war thus far to internatonal aide and social programs, to peacekeeping and truly taking care of the world, then America's Social Insurance wouldnt be tanking, and there would be many less US flags going up in smoke right now.

And lastly, of course the US Gov does not have an official policy of 'torture' But that doesnt mean it wasnt authorized from the highest levels of government.  But if we lower ourselves to their level,  are we not terrorists, are these not crimes against humanity?

Grow Up Boys,    The world is both a beautiful and horrible place and we can't fix it by dropping bombs on people.

Look at the Marshall Plan after WWII,      America REBUILT all of Europe.    Money that is used for war can also be used for peace.
American soldiers are more often than not used for war,            I hope Canadian soldiers remain entrusted in the cause of peace.
And when we HAVE to,                we will fight like hell,  with pride, with honour, and for a justified end.

 

 

[Infanteer]

Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
No-one wants to attack us,  because we dont attack them.

Yep. head in the sand - just as I thought.

Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.

...and nobody here with real-world experience is really listening to you.

 

[scm77]

If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,  why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.

One of my favourite arguments of the anti-war crowd.  "War should be the last option, but if we gonna attack one country we should attack alot of other countries too."

Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada? No-one wants to attack us, because we dont attack them.

Typical Canadian "head in the sand" "everybody loves us" thought.  Osama Bin Laden has named Canada as a target for Al Qaeda in atleast one of his messages.  SEE HERE
ALSO MENTIONED HERE

"No-one wants to attack us, because we don't attack them?"

  What about Operation Apollo Tthat was Canada (as part of US led coalition) attacking Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan. 

Make no mistake there are plenty of people in the world who would love to kill each and every one of us.

That's about all of your nonsense I feel like commenting on for now. I'm sure someone else will sort the rest of your post out (I'm guessing Infanteer )

Edit: 2 replies when I was typing.  I got to learn to type faster. :blotto:

 

[winchable]

America's armed forces have been used for goals that are not in tune with the ideals that Canada has long stood for

Apart from this, you're argument is entirely uneccessary anyway and most certainly is "US bashing."

If a Canadian doesn't feel their ideals are in tune with Canada and perhaps are more in tune with those of the US than shouldn't they serve the "tool" which most closely represents their ideals?

Now if Canadians were being pressed into service your argument may have some merit....



And just in general "wow"

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
No-one wants to attack us,    because we dont attack them.    

You've hit 1 out of 3 - they don't want to attack us for now, but not because we're not an attractive target or because we don't attack them.  Remember that the jihadists despise everything a western democracy like Canada stands for.  We can go hand out chocolate bars and good-will all we want, it won't make them like us or even ignore us.  It has nothing to do with our lack of aggressivity.

Fact is, Canada, with it's open-arm refugee and immigration policies, its porous borders, its habit of handing out passports like candy and allowing the financing of terrorist groups (see Tamil Tigers), we are far more useful to the international terrorist set as a safe haven and supply base than as a target.  The day we stop being useful, they will target Canada and Canadians.

 

[winchable]

handing out passports like candy

They won't give me one..

 

[scm77]

Perhaps if you had connections to Al Qaeda you could get Ottawa to give you an emergency passport like they did for these wonderful people.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/09/canada/khadr_20040409

:rage:

 

[Northern Touch]

Got to this convo late, but I can't see a why someone would look down upon someone who wishes to go south and join the American Army. 

Their reasons are their reasons alone, and who are we to say they should or shouldn't?  Maybe they do want to see some action (what is the point in training as an infanteer and never using the training), maybe they like the faster promotion system, maybe they have personal (family) ties to the states, or maybe they want the greater chance to be "high speed" (that is very arguable of course, but Infanteer can comment on his friend who is getting that chance down south).  It all starts with the recruiting, bottom up.  People see the aura (sp?) created around the US armed forces and it attracts any young, physical, determined young man, American, Canadian, even possibly world wide.

Saying that we have different values doesn't really hold up.  Our values are very much the same, freedom of speech, freedom to make a living, live in peace, and all the rest of the stuff.  These are not just American or Canadian values but more towards NORTH AMERICAN values.  Even if our values are different, maybe people seem to forget that our older brother across the ocean, Britian, with very much the same values, especially since Canada was practically concieved from them, sent troops into Iraq, not just the US. 

People may see it differently, but I see us all on the same team.  Those planes could have easily headed a little farther north and hit Toronto or Ottawa.

Hey, if someone wants to go serve down south, all the power to them.  I don't know if I would, but I might seriously ponder it.

 

[canadianblue]

Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
No-one wants to attack us,  because we dont attack them. 
Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.

Did anybody want to attack us in World War 2, or the Korean War, no. The reason why we went was because we thought that morally we had to go and intervene. As for the whole they don't want to attack us because we don't attack them, well I'm sure that more then a few dictators and people who ethnically clease others are happy about that, especially if the US adopted the same policy.

We intervened in Afganistan, Kosovo, Korea, Europe, etc. So we have fought in war and taken a combat role.

 

[ROTP Applicant]

I truly believe that it is someone's choice whether or not to join the Marines. Nevertheless, the majority of Canadian people do not support this war and since these people fund the CF, we have to reflect their views through our actions (i.e. not going to war) whether we like it or not. However, I am genuinely curious to find out what some of your rebuttals to Hack's argument below may be.

Do you remember what the justification for war in Iraq was?  GW Bush did NOT say "we're going to save the Kurds,  we're going to instill democracy"  He said 'Osama and Saddam are linked' and that 'Iraq has thousands of tonnes of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons' The UN weapons inspector had cleared Iraq before the invasion,  but he attacked nonetheless.
The supposed evidence of the US Gov didnt even exist!!!

So NOW the war is about democracy, NOW the war is about 'legitimate government'????       
Would congress have authorized hundreds of billions of dollars if that was the point?  Of course not      GW Bush created a threat to America,  and attacked that threat.   

If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,  why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.

 

So why has the US switched from the "we're going to eliminate the threat to the US national security" justification of the war, to the "we're going to bring democracy to Iraq" stance on the war??

 

[DogOfWar]

Step one: grab back of head.
Step two: pull hard to remove head from rear.

Your arguments are those of the mouthy, annoying anti-Bush protestor (like the many I encountered here when Bush came to town) who repeats what he has been spoon-fead from Michael Moore, the anti-war crowd, the CBC. I'm sorry, your arguments hold no water with me, or anyone else here. Bye bye.

Oh Piper you just dont understand.

We are supposed to have an intervention with Osama. We just wait at his house until he comes home and then we'll say "Osama- all your friends and family are here and we care about you- but we are concerned about the direction your life is taking". See ? War isnt the answer. More talk is.

:

 

[canadianblue]

Oh Piper you just dont understand.

We are supposed to have an intervention with Osama. We just wait at his house until he comes home and then we'll say "Osama- all your friends and family are here and we care about you- but we are concerned about the direction your life is taking". See ? War isnt the answer. More talk is.

Yeah no doubt, that worked really well during the late 30's eh.

 

[ROTP Applicant]

Because the 'US War Machine' actually gets sent to do its work. The 'Canadian War Machine' sits around gathering dust (with some notable exceptions, and the new CDS gives me hope

2332 Piper Just from that statement alone it seems as if you are bitter that the 'Canadian War Machine' is gathering dust while the US is â Å“doing its workâ ? (whatever it may be) and that you don't give a crap about the reasons for the war, but as long as you fight you are happy. Do you actually care about bringing democracy to the Iraqi people? If you answer yes, then why aren't you currently there helping out as a civilian contractor?

Step one: grab back of head.
Step two: pull hard to remove head from rear.

Your arguments are those of the mouthy, annoying anti-Bush protestor (like the many I encountered here when Bush came to town) who repeats what he has been spoon-fead from Michael Moore, the anti-war crowd, the CBC. I'm sorry, your arguments hold no water with me, or anyone else here. Bye bye.

Hack provided a rebuttal to the counter-arguments you made yesterday in reply to his post, so the best you could do to rebut his statement is â Å“Step one:..... Step two:.......â ?? Very mature. Since you have such strong views on this issue, please provide an educated response to the request I have made earlier today. Thanks in advance.   

 

[Infanteer]

Since you have such strong views on this issue, please provide an educated response to the request I have made earlier today. Thanks in advance.

I've got friends who've been to and/or are preparing to go to the Sandbox (in both the US and the CF) and I've spoken with a quite a few guys who've been their and done that - Hack's comments are out to lunch.

We're pretty much fed up with the "US War Machine" line of debate here.   Most of us don't feel the need to repeat ourselves everytime some armchair General comes in here ranting about how "Bush Sux", especially when the arguments are as naive as some of Mr "Hack"s.

But, since you asked, here is thoughts on general strategy in Southwest Asia:

I am not to sure exactly what you're asking me here, but I'll try to answer it.

With regards to Iraq, I think going in was a good strategy....

Here is a discussion that pretty much shoots the "unilateral imperialism" idea to pieces (something Mr CIVU never even bothered to respond to):

So, what is the level of consensus required to not be "unilateral" - it seems to get broader everytime it gets brought up....

And finally, here is a discussion about the silliness of the title "War on Terror" and trying to apply it to what is really happening, both in Iraq and the Middle East in general:

Agree here as well, but in part.   I'm not so sure it is a conflict with an "extreme fringe" of Islamic (Arab?   Middle Eastern?) culture....

Happy Reading,

Infanteer

 

[ROTP Applicant]

That's a pretty big accusation to make on someone you don't know.   You may as well accuse everyone who wants to serve in the U.S. military as just "wanting to go to war" because they have a different opinion than you.   Your argument is weak because if everyone became a civilian contractor, to avoid a negative image by some, who would be left to be a soldier? Edit: I should mention Piper is good friend of mine from school.

-Steve
Just a civilian finishing high school, for now.

What accusation? I made it clear that that's the image of himself he was portraying through his statement (notice the phrase "it seems" that I used). I did not accuse him of anything. Secondly, when you stated "...because they have a different opinion than you", which of my opinions are you referring to? As far as I know, none of my opinions related to any of Piper's arguments and/or opinions. Finally, I did not provide any of my arguments; I merely asked him a straight-forward question which asks him if he is so passionate in helping bring democracy to Iraq, why doesn't he become a civilian contractor (assuming he can't be a Canadian/US soldier serving there).