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York U: Flower Power, Pray for Peace!

paracowboy said:
oh, well. I will still continue to do everything in my power to train for, fight for, and die for, dumbasses like this to continue to spew their canine excrement any time they so choose.
And bask in the warm glow that my smugness gives me for doing it.   ;)
I win. ;D

That's the right idea!

"No point arguing with an idiot, they'll just drag you down to their level, and beat you through experience..."
 
My email to the editor of the excal:

Mr Villeneuve wrote that "In 1992-93, participation in UN
missions accounted for 92.7 per cent of Canadian Military
spending."  He is incorrect.  In 1992, we still had 4CMBG
and 1 CAD in Europe.  We began downsizing them in 1992 (the
year I was posted back from Lahr, Germany) and eventually
pulled all 24,000 Canadians (military and civilian) from
Lahr and Baden.  That contribution alone accounted for one
sixth of our Defence budget.  At the time, out of close to
90,000 Regular Force members, only 500 or so in Cyprus,
another few hundred in the Golan, and a few other dozen
scattered around the globe were engaged in classic
peacekeeping duties.  The largest and longest of those
missions - Cyprus - was actually intended to keep two NATO
members (Greece and Turkey) from fighting.  This helped
secure the southern flank of NATO (Turkey had thousands of
troops along it's border with the USSR).

In fact, our history as a nation of peacekeepers is a myth
- a big, fat, shining lie.  Whether you measure military
effort in money spent, troops sent or lives lost ,
peacekeeping falls far down the scale of effort.  In
twenty-nine years of Regular Force service, I have spent a
mere six months wearing a Blue Beret, and that was in
Cyprus.  The headress I wore in Germany, Bosnia and
Afghanistan may not have been as colourful, but the missions
accomplished in those places bought Canada a place at the
table.  Soldiers bent under eighty pound rucksacks in the
mountains of Afghanistan mean our allies listen to us a
little, and are probably the only reason they still listen
to us at all.

Oh, and please:  no cries demanding respect for those
killed on our peacekeeping missions - I know your only
concern for them is as a statistic.  In any case, we also
lost over one hundred Sabre jet fighter pilots in only eight
of the years in Europe flying for NATO - you should
acknowledge their sacrifice as well, should you not?

 Since you have been so easily fooled by all of the
propaganda pushing the myth of peacekeeping, you might want
to ask what else they have lied to you about.

(EDIT: removed name, addy, tel no.)
 
Yes, I have noticed that too.  I've also noticed that in general Older people have an "understanding" of what we are about and a general respect for the things we give up.

The thing I believe may be the reason behind the students and us is Field of mental vision.  Blue collar folks like us tend to have in most cases a well generated array of information they have gathered over time. Whilst students on the other hand tend to be more educated but only in specific areas to their interest.  This means that they can be quite knowledgeable in some areas but because of this they have the "rose coloured glasses" effect.

In the end, people will have their views and seek to defend their version of reality. In my case particular I have done some research into the things that military opposition would use to back their statements and my position has not changed on Military funding, uses and future possibilities.

Earlier it was said in the analogy about insurance the fact that Canadians no nothing about living in fear of death, starvation, oppression and all of the other things that we fight against. This is completely correct. Notice how when we are getting bashed the argument that we are a foreign oppressing power ( same argument against the states) seems to be one of the hot topics.  Seems that we should let the country in question sort themselves out....  But how can they do that id anyone who speaks out is murdered? How can their be democracy and free religion in such a state?  There comes a time where a situation has deteriorated into disarray and no chance of return. THAT is when we come in. Canada does NOT go where its not needed. {The problems with being able to do that job because of political red tape is another conversation, so with those issues aside.}

If I was them I would want someone like Canada to come and help me. Simple as that.
 
Cpl Bloggins said:
Myself as well, and I go to U of T.  :-[

It is, however, quite amusing to sit through political science tutorials and listen to people speechify about things they know little about. Case in point: the other day we were discussing how the world has changed after 9/11, and someone eloquently mentioned how the United States has increased security, but Canada hasn't had to, because we are peaceful and would never fight anyone. Took a while for me to stop giggling to myself.

I find it's usually the intellectually deficient and first-year students that try to proselytize in class. Normative arguments, especially those with little foundation, are usually little more than an embarassment to the one making them in class.

The overwhelming majority of professors I've had have shot down attempts at normative preaching before they get beyond the first sentence. Normativity is fine for pub conversations, but it has little place in undergrad poli sci courses. The whole point is that we're supposed to be getting a grounding in the theories and methodology of the field, not getting tied down in "good/bad" debates which, though the most interesting, are usually the least productive or edifying.
 
Peace said:
Notice how when we are getting bashed the argument that we are a foreign oppressing power ( same argument against the states) seems to be one of the hot topics.   Seems that we should let the country in question sort themselves out....   But how can they do that id anyone who speaks out is murdered? How can their be democracy and free religion in such a state?   There comes a time where a situation has deteriorated into disarray and no chance of return. THAT is when we come in. Canada does NOT go where its not needed. {The problems with being able to do that job because of political red tape is another conversation, so with those issues aside.}

If you undertake a quick study of canadian military deployments, we go all kinds of places we are'nt "needed". There are despotic regimes around the world that commit far worse atrocities than have ever happened in the Sinai, the Golan hieghts, Cyprus, FRY, Somalia and the Balkans. You will notice that we are in no hurry to go "help" in places like North Korea or Africa anymore, despite horrific human rights abuses, mass starvation and the presence of nightmarish despots. There is no political benefit to doing so, so we don't.

We don't deploy on the basis of some level of infringement upon free speech or religious persecution. We deploy for poilitical reasons, to increase Canadian influence on the world stage. This is the basis of internationalist theory. Googling terms like lynch pin, counterweight and helpful fixer will provide you with insight into the motives for Canadian operational deployments in the last fifty years. The fact that we just happen to feel good about them is a bonus, but not the basis.
 
GO!!! said:
This is the basis of internationalist theory. Googling terms like lynch pin, counterweight and helpful fixer will provide you with insight into the motives for Canadian operational deployments in the last fifty years. 

Thanks, ill give em a look see.
 
I started a second degree last year at 29 (first one was BA-Political Science), and I came to realize that the one trend all 19 year old undergrads share is ignorance and egotism.  I believe the best thing you can take away from a University education is how much you don't know.  The secondary educational system, which I think works under the principle that any thought is good thought, leaves these people feeling like Jesus' special little ray of sunshine, and as a result they think that anything that was cribbed out of an old copy of Canadian Dimension or an NDP campaign pamphlet constitutes a thesis (not that the young Conservatoids are any better).  I had to point out a  Student Coalition Against War representative that if she really wanted to be taken seriously in regards to Canada's participation in Afghanistan she might want to learn the difference between an Afghan and an Afghani.
 
Francois Villeneuve - Technology Editor   

Saeed Osman - Contributor   

Reading these guys articles is simply amazing.

Brings to mind the desire to issue the order to "Terminate with Extreme Prejudice".  I am so glad that my time defending this nation at home and abroad has allowed these guys the right to abuse the freedoms allowed them in Canada (as who is to say they are Canadians?) as they please.
 
I blame a lot of ignorance among university students on the counter-culture.  We get to school, 17 or 18 years old in most cases, and for the first time we're away from mommy and daddy.  With no one to really set limits for our behaviour, we try to fit into a university culture that may be more percieved than reality.  Personally, before I got to university, the only experience I had of post-secondary education was from movies, where the characters are generally partying constantly or hippies. 

The hippie movement really was pretty limited to the university campuses, since the 'oppressed' people usually were too busy working or being lynched to actually fight for themselves.  Even though the counter-culture supposedly ended 30 years ago, there is still that glorified ideal out there, floating around campuses like a bad fart, that sucks you in pretty quickly and creates a certain subconscious need to protest the Establishment.

Of course, the Establishment has changed radically since the '60's.  Iraq and Afghanistan, although ironically parallel in some ways, are not Vietnam, but there is still a distrust of the military.  Here I think you see a lot of influence from American media, as well.  I don't want to bash the media...some great movies have come out.  But a lack of Canadian media influence (and general self-knowledge in our country in general) means that the average Canadian univeristy student thinks we run like the American military.  Just after 9/11, I had to explain to 2 guys in my residence that they don't have to worry about being drafted to fight in Afghanistan because...well...we have a pretty good army already, and don't really have the draft.  (Of course, one was too stupid to figure out he's from Australia, and couldn't be drafted in Canada, anyway.)  Another girl panicked when she realised that females are allowed in the CF now, and figured she'd be drafted, too.  (I didn't set her right; it was just much more fun to watch her hyperventilate.)  Without even realising it, they immediately jumped to Vietnam mentality.  And in the past few years, that mentality hasn't gone away.

It's not a general stupidity that has gotten hold, or even a lack of respect for soldiers in general (the Rememberance Day ceremony is always packed).  I think it's a lot more to do with not knowing anything about today's CF, and falling back on stereotypes instead of trying to find out what's really going on.  This can be extended to lots of protest groups (ie. a pamphlet that said we shoud stop eating eggs, because you kill a chick eveytime you crack one open), so don't feel alone out there. 

The protestors, in my opinion, are still friggin' idiots with their heads so far up their a$$es that they're practically inside-out.  But they're also scared little children trying to find their way without someone to hold their hand.  Just as the hippies of yesteryear became the Establishment of today, someday me peers will out-grow this phase and, hopefully, realize the great work our soldiers do.

Anyhoo, the DND is recruiting 'defense scientists', whatever the hell that is, on campus (UofA) next Monday.  I doubt there will be any huge protest, but should be interesting to see what happens here as opposed to other places.  I may go throw rocks at hippies, just for a stress releaver. >:D

:salute:
 
"I may go throw rocks at hippies, just for a stress releaver."

- My wife and I will read the Ed Sun and Journal a little better next week, to see if you are in it!

;D

Tom
 
I may go throw rocks at hippies, just for a stress releaver.

Ahh...music to our ears.

Meg, let me be one of the fist to cordially welcome you to army.ca. I think you'll like it here.

Slim
STAFF
 
"The CSA opposes military recruitment initiatives at the University of Guelph. This includes tabling in the UC, ads in washrooms, or any visible presence on campus by any military organization(s) that is/are known to have participated in, or supported in any way, activities that are clearly illegal."

Well, its reassuring to know that the Waffen SS and the Serbian Secret Police won't be recruiting at Guelph. Whew.
 
Enfield said:
"The CSA opposes military recruitment initiatives at the University of Guelph. This includes tabling in the UC, ads in washrooms, or any visible presence on campus by any military organization(s) that is/are known to have participated in, or supported in any way, activities that are clearly illegal."

Well, its reassuring to know that the Waffen SS and the Serbian Secret Police won't be recruiting at Guelph. Whew.

Cleaning coffee from keyboard and screen....priceless!!!! ;D ;D ;D
 
I would love tosee the reaction of these precious little darlings if they did live in a country with a 'bad' military!

They have absolutely no idea how good they have it here is this wishy-washy country of ours!
 
"Well, its reassuring to know that the Waffen SS and the Serbian Secret Police won't be recruiting at Guelph."

- The Waffen SS are recruiting again?  Great, just great.  Here we go again....

- Oh well, at least my AFV and AC Recognition skills will be back in style!

;D

Tom
 
ROFL!  :D

That "clearly ilegal" clause is interesting... I don't think it probibits the CF from recruiting there at all, and it forces the burden of proof of illegal activity onto the protestors.

It might be instructive to put up some posters, and then see the protestors try and prove the CF meets the "clearly illegal' standard in order to have them removed.

DG
 
Well: I hope nobody thinks that there is anything new about this. It's in the nature of young university students in hte Western world (esp North America) to question things, especially authority and its agents like the police and the military. It's also in their nature to have very little real wisdom or life experience to back up their opnions. Most of them have no idea what we (or anybody else...) are doing in Afghanistan, what the situation is there, etc. And, of course, anti-Americanism is served for lunch in university dining halls. It is almost gospel, I think.

Once again, in the words of some of these student journalists I hear echoes of our own terribly ill-advised and poisonous effort to peddle ourselves for decades as happy little blue-helmeted do-gooders, even when we as an institution knew very well that that type of "peacekeeping" was rapidly being overtaken by events. We (the big "WE", I mean...) wanted acceptance and "life insurance" so deserately that we forgot who we are. Now, because we spread that propaganda for so long, we must reap what we have sown.

My advice is not to pout and say "Go F**K yourselves you commies" (as satisfying as that may be...) but to engage, challenge and interact with these people every chance we get. Are their arguments intrinsically more sound or right than ours? No? Well then, we mihgt not be welcome on the ground but we should write, e-mail or call as often as we can. Those of us actually in university take courage, as lonely as it sometimes must seem. They are not "right" just because there are more of them.

Cheers

 
I think this one's particularly entertaining:

"...or that is not in the best interest of the civilian public..."

As determined by a bunch of angst-ridden pseudo-intellectual, self-important quifs. It's hilarious.

I've found that it's not the student body that's the problem, it's the student politicians.
 
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