The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[mariomike]

When I was doing remote inspections of placer mines and other places, it was fairly common to be greeted by a person with a shotgun discreetly behind their back or close at hand.

In Toronto, male bank staff used to practice their marksmanship.

"( Bank manager ) Elwood grabbed a fully loaded .38 calibre revolver that was kept in the teller's drawer and set off in pursuit. The robber attempted to commandeer a car parked in front of the bank. The manager charged out of the bank and emptied the five shot revolver at the robber, but all the bullets missed."
Toronto Star
May 19, 1955. Toronto Dominion Bank at Dundas and McCaul.

"Although the banks don't appear to have taken security very seriously, they did issue handguns to bank staff with the expectation that if there was a hold-up, they would shoot back. There was even a secret downtown firing range in the old Bank of Toronto building where managers and tellers were expected to practice regularly. This ended only in the late 1950s after a bank staff member was killed by a ricocheting shot meant for a robber."

http://www.emcperth.ca/20110526/Lifestyle/Bank+robbers+riveted+Canada's+attention+in+the+'50s

I remember chatting with an armoured truck guard around the time they switched from the old flap style holster to the secure type with a snap. I noticed he had the snap held open with tape. I said that looked like a good idea for a faster draw. He said he started doing that after robbers got the drop on him. He put his hands up. The robbers tried to disarm him, but couldn't figure how to get his gun released. Thought they were going to kill him. So, after that, he kept the snap taped back, for their convenience, while his hands were reaching for the sky.

Armoured truck guards in TO used to carry shotguns. Not just in the cab like now, but on the street too.

Not to say which times were better or worse. Just different.

 

[Eaglelord17]

FJAG, Brihard and Lenaitch would be the SME's on legality. I'm a life long gun owner. But, I've only used them for hunting.



YMMV on 9-1-1 response times. But, a Bronson response hardly seems necessary for "the smaller stuff".



Would you go Bronson for being "cheated"?

Pretty sure most police departments offer tips on what to do, and what not to do, for protection of property.

I am not saying I would personally, I am just surprised others haven't yet. Be it shoot someone, or even just beating them with a baseball bat. Not saying it is legal, just amazed it hasn't happened already. There is only so much BS people are willing to take before they have had enough.

Look at Afghanistan as a easy example. If you were wronged you could either try to go through the slow and corrupt court system we imposed on them or you could go to the Taliban and they would give you results fairly quickly. Guess which path many Afghanis took... Same thing for Canada where if the police, courts, and government are failing to impose order at some point individuals will start imposing their own.

We are creating a crime crisis in our country, which might actually be the governments intent. From there they blame the firearms owners when crime skyrockets and use the misdirected anger of the voters to ban firearms in the mistaken belief it shall better the situation.

 

[Haggis]

We are creating a crime crisis in our country, which might actually be the governments intent. From there they blame the firearms owners when crime skyrockets and use the misdirected anger of the voters to ban firearms in the mistaken belief it shall better the situation.

Nailed it!

 

[mariomike]

We are creating a crime crisis in our country, which might actually be the governments intent.

That's an interesting theory. Do you have a source?

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's an interesting theory. Do you have a source?

No formal source, just looking at what is happening and wondering why they would tolerating it. Hard to push fear based politics unless you have something to fear.

Thanks to Bill C-75 that the Liberals passed in 2018 criminals are automatically given bail. If they violate those conditions or break the law again, they are again given bail. Right now the police are arresting the same people over and over again, and the criminals have no fear of retaliation as they know if they are caught they shall instantly be let out (don't even spend the night in jail). Just a simple example locally they arrested one guy 3 times in a month for illegal possession of firearms and prohibited devices. How many times does this need to happen before they are kept in prison? When they finally kill someone?

The worst part is they shall use these statistics they are creating on increased gun crime and use it to target the 2 million law abiding citizens in the country. It is disgusting and there isn't much people can do about it. Locally the cops are just going from higher priority calls to higher priority calls, if you have a minor concern like a noise complaint they can't even show up anymore as they don't have the manning to keep up with the increase in calls due to the same criminals committing crimes non-stop. Its even more demoralizing for them as they feel like they are accomplishing nothing as they are making the same arrests over and over again.

 

[ModlrMike]

The irony is that gun owners are generally rural, where gun crime is generally urban. Taking guns away from farmers, hunters and trappers is not going to reduce the number of murders in our biggest cities. So the question is, if we outlawed all guns tomorrow, would the situation change in any meaningful way?

 

[Haggis]

It's even more demoralizing for them as they feel like they are accomplishing nothing as they are making the same arrests over and over again.

This is a common complaint among LEOs in small to medium sized communities. Often they see the seriousness/violence of offences committed by these "frequent flyers" increasing over time.

 

[mariomike]

The irony is that gun owners are generally rural, where gun crime is generally urban.

Are you sure about that?

For Firearms Offences select: "Firearms Offences",

Canada's Most Dangerous Places 2020 - Macleans.ca

Use this interactive tool to see the full ranking of Canada's most dangerous places. Rank cities by type of crime or see all the statistics for one city.

www.macleans.ca

 

[mariomike]

Locally the cops are just going from higher priority calls to higher priority calls, if you have a minor concern like a noise complaint they can't even show up anymore as they don't have the manning to keep up with the increase in calls due to the same criminals committing crimes non-stop.

I've always supported those politicians at City Hall who support our 9-1-1 operations .

That includes, among other things like fair pay and benefits, maintaining safe staffing levels for acceptable Response Times.

Thankfully, party politics are not involved .

 

[Brad Sallows]

That's an interesting theory. Do you have a source?

"Common sense" is the obvious one. Politicians and bureaucrats and agencies don't accrue more power by solving problems; they do so by keeping the problems going and nudging people along. Keeping people fearful and weak is a centuries-old playbook.

Real life isn't Game of Thrones, but it doesn't mean there isn't a little bit of Game of Thrones in real life.

We have a system of justice to forestall vigilantism, and this is preferable because while vigilantism sometimes delivers justice it also easily delivers injustice. Colloquially, the police exist not to protect citizens from criminals, but to protect criminals from citizens. We delegate authority to that system and agree not to be vigilantes, but that is conditional on the system achieving what we expect it to achieve. Whether or not black letter law openly acknowledges that bargain is irrelevant.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Self defense in Canada using lethal force is allowed, however your not allowed to prepare for that situation. If you do it, the Crown will try to destroy you, mentally and fiscally. Everything you say on social media will be used against you and expect that everything you say to that sympathetic police officer will be recorded and used by the Crown to prove you are a menace. If you plan on having a firearm handy for protection, don't talk about it, watch and read the very good articles on Youtube and print done by Canadian firearm lawyers so you will know what you are in for after the initial event and be partly mentally prepared.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The irony is that gun owners are generally rural, where gun crime is generally urban. Taking guns away from farmers, hunters and trappers is not going to reduce the number of murders in our biggest cities. So the question is, if we outlawed all guns tomorrow, would the situation change in any meaningful way?

There used to be a government source we could check to see how many guns of type were located in individual postal codes. I ran most of my guns through it and was amazed at the amount of guns in a city. My postal code alone, ownership was huge. Much more than I would have ever guessed. And being more densely populated, urban areas hold way more owners than rural ones. Cities are full of hunters and target shooters.

 

[ModlrMike]

Maybe I should alter my comment by saying that the perception is that gun owners are mostly rural. Certainly the Liberals and the anti gun lobby frame the argument as such. Witness "nobody needs an AR-15 to hunt".

 

[Jarnhamar]

second thoughts

 

[Good2Golf]

‘Fear On Top Of Fear’: How 2020 Drove Anti-Gun Americans to Arm Themselves.

Interesting insight into how many previous anti-gun advocates changed, and armed themselves.

There are a few ‘Hunh?’ in there as well, like:

Savannah Grace of Richmond had always hated guns but bought a Glock 45 after an officer pointed a rifle at her during a protest against police violence last summer.

 

[ModlrMike]

If you bring a firearm to a protest, there is a near zero chance of nothing bad happening.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What a Clusterf**K

 

[brihard]

If you bring a firearm to a protest, there is a near zero chance of nothing bad happening.

It’s an offense under S.89(1) of the Criminal Code. R v Lacombe, a 2004 case out of Alberta, establishes the best case for how it goes for you, and that still includes a criminal conviction, loss of your firearm, and presumably loss of your privileges of having any other firearms. 2004 ABPC 90 (CanLII) | R. v. Lacombe | CanLII

That was was a very particular set of facts wherein the offender behaved specifically so as to make his protest as safe as possible with a wrapped up firearm with bolt removed, and with advance warning to police. Try showing up to a protest carrying/wearing a firearm in any way where it’s at all accessible to you for use, and the best case will probably look like you getting several guns pointed at you while you’re proned out and arrested. You’ll be in custody for several hours, criminally charged, lose your guns, etc. Not a good day.

So, FWIW, not recommended.

 

[Haggis]

What a Clusterf**K

Well, in reality all this does is revert the ATT process back to pre-Bill C42 (Common Sense Firearms laws) passed by the Conservatives. The big missing piece is that the Liberals were to have rolled out an app to make ATTs available 24/7 through a quick, easy and instant portal. That never happened. Maybe it will be developed by IBM in concert with the compensated confiscation (TM) plan. What's a few more million tacked on to that contract?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Came by email and letter. I should do an ATIP to see how much this is going to cost them in PY's


A change has recently come into force to the Firearms Act as part of Bill C-71, An Act to amend certain Acts and Regulations in relation to firearms. The change has resulted in the removal of the following conditions related to the transport of restricted/prohibited firearms from your licence:

Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited firearms to a port of exit, in order to take them outside Canada and from a port of entry. Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited firearms to and from a gun show. Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited firearms to and from a business that holds a licence authorizing it to repair or appraise prohibited or restricted firearms. Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited firearms to and from any place a peace officer, firearms officer or chief firearms officer is located for verification, registration or disposal in accordance with the Firearms Act and Part III of the Criminal Code.

If you wish to transport your restricted/prohibited firearm for one of the above purposes, you must apply for an Authorization to Transport to your Chief Firearms Officer. To contact your Chief Firearms Officer, please call 1 800 731-4000.

All affected licence holders will be mailed a formal notification of the changes to the Authorizations to Transport, including your current updated licence conditions.