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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

Or you can argue SIU is just cops protecting cops. There have been cases were the SIU has said nothing bad happened, and when the case goes to trial the Judge (who will rarely say anything against the police) says they have used excessive force.

Not saying cops aren’t better trained today than the past, just that a lack of charges through the SIU doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t deserve charges.
 
The observation is more important than the amount of times it’s shot, the number of rounds is interesting- but not necessarily important. The reason I start shooting, why I’m shooting, and the reason I stop is.
A good example of this is the shooting of Sammy Yatim in Toronto. The officer fired two volleys of shots. The first was articulatable and deemed reasonable. The second was not and the officer faced second-degree murder and manslaughter charges as a result. He was convicted of attempted murder instead and sentenced to six years..
 
A good example of this is the shooting of Sammy Yatim in Toronto.

He was convicted of attempted murder instead and sentenced to six years..

In addition to the criminal trial, a coroner's inquest was announced.

As well as a civil lawsuit against city taxpayers by the family.
 
Or you can argue SIU is just cops protecting cops. There have been cases were the SIU has said nothing bad happened, and when the case goes to trial the Judge (who will rarely say anything against the police) says they have used excessive force.

Not saying cops aren’t better trained today than the past, just that a lack of charges through the SIU doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t deserve charges.
Examples please.
 
Locally we had a cop assault a cooperative person being arrested. He broke the persons ribs. Then they went to jail and proceeded to drag them cell to cell talking to them about how they aren’t so tough now well a supervisor watched. Eventually they did bring the person to the hospital and they almost died of septic shock.

SIU investigated said nothing wrong happened. Fast forward a year to the court case for the person and the judge said excessive force was used on him specifically for the dragging around the jail portion. SIU I can’t remember if they chose to reinvestigate or not but I do remember the cop complaining in the media about how his career was being held up over this situation. He was finally charged under the police services act, plead guilty, and sentenced to a loss of two days pay. Cop also happened to be the son of a former police chief. Still working as a cop as far as I am aware.

It takes a lot for a judge to state excessive force is used, they almost always lean towards the polices side. Speaks to how far this cop went and how much of a blind eye SIU was willing to take.
 
Or you can argue SIU is just cops protecting cops. There have been cases were the SIU has said nothing bad happened, and when the case goes to trial the Judge (who will rarely say anything against the police) says they have used excessive force.

Not saying cops aren’t better trained today than the past, just that a lack of charges through the SIU doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t deserve charges.
The SIU doesn't have the mandate to determine if something "bad" or "wrong" happened; it only has the mandate to determine if a criminal offence was committed. True that some of the investigators are former members, but since only the Director has the authority to make that determination based or reasonable and probable grounds, it could also be argued that not a single Director has been a cop or ex-cop since the unit was created.

The judge, in your example, also did not make a determination that a criminal offence had been committed; they made a determination that the accused Charter rights had been infringed by the State and brought the administration of justice into disrepute. Although not stated in the example, I assume the court tossed whatever charge the accused was facing.
 
The SIU doesn't have the mandate to determine if something "bad" or "wrong" happened; it only has the mandate to determine if a criminal offence was committed. True that some of the investigators are former members, but since only the Director has the authority to make that determination based or reasonable and probable grounds, it could also be argued that not a single Director has been a cop or ex-cop since the unit was created.

The judge, in your example, also did not make a determination that a criminal offence had been committed; they made a determination that the accused Charter rights had been infringed by the State and brought the administration of justice into disrepute. Although not stated in the example, I assume the court tossed whatever charge the accused was facing.
Charge was dropped, officer was then charged under police services act for the crimes he committed. Officer plead guilty and was given a two day pay suspension for his actions, which is a joke in my opinion as they clearly didn’t want to charge him in the first place and was only willing to do so after there was no other choice.

Much like the police officer who pointed her gun at a colleague and was only moved to a different unit with light punishment, not even fired, a great example of double standard in Canadian society.
 
The Charge against the person charged in the file was dropped and the police laid a service act charge- which is an internal process and NOT criminal charges.

I’m struggling to respond to you because you are mixing up a lot of unrelated things.

Firstly, judges are not experts on use of force- that is why they don’t generally comment on it. When it’s a use of force issue subject matter experts are brought in- usually in my experience one for crown and defence, that present the information the judge needs to know- they then make an educated determination- and they are quite good at using the opinions they are provided, so they usually avoid flippant remarks on it unless it’s a pretty shocking event.

So, in lots of cases in Ontario, and the rules are different because police are expected to use force so it’s balanced differently, there will be a professional responsibility officer in a court where there are potential service act (which are not criminal) concerns. The officer uses comments like the ones from the judge, discussing with the crown, and makes sense of whether there is a service act concern- usually for conduct that reduces the police services reputation. They will then lay that internal charge. This is roundabout system because they need the evidence for the charge and doesn’t rely on the officers producing evidence against themselves even for internal processes. Or is how it’s explained to me as an outsider looking at their conduct system.

IIU/ SIU/IIO etc is not professional standards. Professional responsibility units are a separate, non-criminal layer of review. It is not the same as an NDA charge. It’s a policy breach that has consequence.

Generally, because I’ve only really dealt with four provinces and their systems can be different but resemble each other, a file with a firearm that is brought up- a crown opinion will be sought as to whether there is public interest in a criminal charge. When that criminal charge isn’t approved or supported it will move to a service act charge. Those non-criminal ones they do internally.

Termination is very hard because of employment law and collective agreements. We aren’t interested in working with dummies. We just get to.

So a thing can be determined to not meet the threshold for charges by SIU, it can also shock a judge- and causes a charter breach, and can also end in a non-criminal conduct service breach that cost them pay.

Those are three independent things that really don’t have much to do with each other. If you can find the SIU report, and they are all published, I can look at it for you.

I am not a police apologist. I have been an SME and SMR against officers who wander wildly out of bounds.

Although, qualifier, I’m not in this biz anymore and this stuff is always moving. So I’m not an expert- I’m just a dude who saw some things years ago.
 
Much like the police officer who pointed her gun at a colleague and was only moved to a different unit with light punishment, not even fired, a great example of double standard in Canadian society.
Are you referring to this police officer? Her punishment by the RCMP was not light. But had she been a civilian gun owner, she probably would've gotten jail time and wouldn't be owning guns any longer, if ever again. That double standard really pisses me off.
 
Are you referring to this police officer? Her punishment by the RCMP was not light. But had she been a civilian gun owner, she probably would've gotten jail time and wouldn't be owning guns any longer, if ever again. That double standard really pisses me off.
That is the firearm example I am referring too. Not Ontario, but it can show the double standard applied to citizen vs police when one should be significantly more educated trained and well behaved than the other due to the responsibilities placed in their hands.
 
That is the firearm example I am referring too. Not Ontario, but it can show the double standard applied to citizen vs police when one should be significantly more educated trained and well behaved than the other due to the responsibilities placed in their hands.
Doesn't matter which province it happened in as firearms laws are federal. Contrast her treatment with that afforded to an Edmonton cop who "accidentally" fired a live round at/near another officer in jest.
 
Honestly I would put that incident below the female officer pointing and threatening with the firearm (especially with the weak lie that they were joking around instead of acknowledging she lost control, not very ethical). Reminds me a lot of those two soldiers in Afghanistan playing quick draw and one accidentally shooting the other in the chest.

Still should have been charges even if its just careless use of a firearm.
 
Honestly I would put that incident below the female officer pointing and threatening with the firearm (especially with the weak lie that they were joking around instead of acknowledging she lost control, not very ethical). Reminds me a lot of those two soldiers in Afghanistan playing quick draw and one accidentally shooting the other in the chest.

Still should have been charges even if its just careless use of a firearm.
I actually agree with this. I would see any firearms ****ery by an officer met with firearms charges. And I don’t care if they get a prohib from it- go do something else.
 
Eaglelord17,
If I remember correctly you complained about this incident a couple years ago.....if this is the only one you can keep pulling out of your hat, the system must be doing good.
 
Eaglelord17,
If I remember correctly you complained about this incident a couple years ago.....if this is the only one you can keep pulling out of your hat, the system must be doing good.
Overall I would say there has been a ton of improvements in the policing system in the last few decades. It has gone a long way from the cops asking security guards if they beat the crap out of the people they were holding until the police arrived, or obviously breaking the law knowing the other cops won't charge them.

I am very supportive of the police. I just happen to take a dim view of criminal activity and double standards.

I have said it before policing in Canada is a old boys club. Usually they go after the criminals and do a fairly good job of it. They also struggle to police themselves, much like the military struggles to police themselves. Its human nature, no one wants to turn a buddy in, especially if that person is supposed to have your back.
 
That was ugly all the way around.
For ugly, look to the current Ottawa Police Service: case tossed for two officers lying about other OPS officers being present, "finding" a gun that Gatineau SWAT somehow missed in plain view while doing multiple sweeps of the location before OPS entered, and now being sued for stealing $50,000 in cash. A related case was later overturned once the individual convicted, now cleared, learned that the related case had been tossed.

 
I do find it interesting, as an observation and not speaking as an rep of my agency, how often it seems like it’s “guns and gangs” units that are constantly caught up in bullshit.
 
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