Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[Bruce Monkhouse]

For ugly, look to the current Ottawa Police Service: case tossed for two officers lying about other OPS officers being present, "finding" a gun that Gatineau SWAT somehow missed in plain view while doing multiple sweeps of the location before OPS entered, and now being sued for stealing $50,000 in cash. A related case was later overturned once the individual convicted, now cleared, learned that the related case had been tossed.

Ottawa police guns-and-gangs unit loses another big case

Chris Uniat pleaded guilty last year in a drugs-and-ammo case, but, after reading about a bad warrant against an accused accomplice, struck that guilty plea.

ottawacitizen.com

Except the OPS deserves a different category then the other police services in Canada.

Maybe they could blame it on having to work in close proximity to the lying, thieving nexus of Canada....

 

[brihard]

Are you referring to this police officer? Her punishment by the RCMP was not light. But had she been a civilian gun owner, she probably would've gotten jail time and wouldn't be owning guns any longer, if ever again. That double standard really pisses me off.

If the facts were in fact as alleged, she should be out. If you don’t have the temperament to use your firearm responsibly, you should move on and take your skills to a new profession.

There's always "Niagara police officer shot by other Niagara police officer while both on duty charged, charges stayed due to shooting officer possibly accessing evidence".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/niagara-constable-prosecution-1.6292787

That one was really messed up. The shoot itself sounds like it was legitimate self defence. The officer was acting in the scope of his duties, and the other officer pulled his baton on him.

The collapse of charges against the officer who got shot sounds to have been due to a botching of what was disclosed and how. It shouldn’t have happened, but given the bizarre set of facts, I’m not overly surprised that something like it did. Remember that, for a time, the officer who shot was charged criminally and was entitled to full disclosure of all material facts and evidence.

Except the OPS deserves a different category then the other police services in Canada.

OPS is a special kind of dumpster fire. They even make us look good.

 

[Booter]

If the facts were in fact as alleged, she should be out. If you don’t have the temperament to use your firearm responsibly, you should move on and take your skills to a new profession.

That one was really messed up. The shoot itself sounds like it was legitimate self defence. The officer was acting in the scope of his duties, and the other officer pulled his baton on him.

The collapse of charges against the officer who got shot sounds to have been due to a botching of what was disclosed and how. It shouldn’t have happened, but given the bizarre set of facts, I’m not overly surprised that something like it did. Remember that, for a time, the officer who shot was charged criminally and was entitled to full disclosure of all material facts and evidence.



OPS is a special kind of dumpster fire. They even make us look good.

Just one of the strangest files I’ve ever seen- and the officers conduct history is amazing too. Which doesn’t mean you should get shot- but it’s just altogether wild

 

[brihard]

Just one of the strangest files I’ve ever seen- and the officers conduct history is amazing too. Which doesn’t mean you should get shot- but it’s just altogether wild

Mm hm. It's reminiscent of other discussions on this site of people getting endless second chances. Not everyone is suitable for every job.

 

[Haggis]

Just one of the strangest files I’ve ever seen- and the officers conduct history is amazing too. Which doesn’t mean you should get shot- but it’s just altogether wild

When I read through that part, I wasn't surprised that he got shot by someone, but was surprised that it too that long for it to occur.

 

[Booter]

Mm hm. It's reminiscent of other discussions on this site of people getting endless second chances. Not everyone is suitable for every job.

Without a hard diversion even farther- I don’t know how to fix things as long as it’s impossible to get rid of people, not fire per say but like…no longer need them.

There is a small division where there are several senior NCOs on paid leave for off duty conduct related incidents, for years.

The amount of work going into salvaging their careers makes my eyes cross. One of whom- has been demoted previously for the same conduct.

If the average Canadian has an integrity of “6” the average cop should be an “8”. The slide into accepting “average” in an officers conduct is wrong. But hey. I’m just some guy I’m of the opinion that when a police officer is charged with an offence- it should be an aggravating factor that they are a police officer. Same with lawyers, judges, judges, politicians…military officers…

 

[Haggis]

If the average Canadian has an integrity of “6” the average cop should be an “8”. The slide into accepting “average” in an officers conduct is wrong. But hey. I’m just some guy I’m of the opinion that when a police officer is charged with an offence- it should be an aggravating factor that they are a police officer. Same with lawyers, judges, judges, politicians…military officers…

All those professions, including the police, claim to hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct and care right up until they are standing accused, either criminally or professionally. Then "we all deserve equal treatment."

 

[mariomike]

Same with lawyers, judges, judges, politicians…military officers…

Some professions are held to a higher level of trust from both the employer and the public.

Professional conduct outside of profession

How far should high standards of professional conduct apply when employees are off duty?

www.hrreporter.com

Certain jobs require a high level of skill and a high level of trust from both employers and the public. For employees working in those types of positions, it’s possible that off-duty behaviour can call into question that trust, if it demonstrates poor judgment. And if an employer no longer has confidence that an employee has the judgment to perform a job of high skill and responsibility, the result could be dismissal.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Two RCMP officers who shot at bystander during N.S. mass shooting say it was the right decision

Constables tell inquiry despite peppering the firehall being used as a comfort zone for evacuated civilians with rifle fire, they wouldn’t have done anything…

nationalpost.com

Well that was pretty embarrassing to read. I think a lot more training is in order.

On the bright side, had they been better with a carbine, they might have actually hit Mr. Westlake, so there is that to consider.

 

[Booter]

So. Mandatory training- meaning everyone has to have it in order to be operationally on the road. Recerts and user courses- usually hover around 80% and have dipped as low as 50%

For example, a few years ago a use of force option, pre Covid, dropped to 50% compliance levels for completed mandatory training- there were massive logistical issues that kept the course from being delivered properly. So a thing we HAD to have done we could get 50% through.

Presently, recert-wise, officers fully trained on their options will spend 3 days annually, minimum to get these mandatories done- plus travel. Then every three-ish years they have a week of recerts on top of that.

If you add ANY investigative courses that’s another few weeks of the year. And investigations are what they spend their time doing- in theory.

Now, add on top that most, and don’t believe a word to the contrary because it’s a shell game by the government, have vacancies in their unit in the tens of percents.

One unit I’m very familiar of- is ten times the national average for violent crime. It was recommended to have well over twenty officers for its file load in 2006 and the rcmp agreed to staff it that way, it presently has 18 postions 15 years later- with twice the population and files it had in 2006 today. Of those 18 positions 14 actually have a person in them.

And that’s NORMAL.

So increasing training for niche events, takes a force that’s stretched thin- and adds more absence and vacancy for training. And training takes trainers- which is more people missing from the road. And when I say niche I still mean terrible, severe events we need to Learn from- but also almost the rarest instance. The danger of rare outlier calls is- even if I train you for them- they still catch you off guard. So your response can suck. If I see a thing once a year- and then I am blindsided 364 days later am I really going to rise up and meet the challenge like a stud?

Most divisional trainers do it as a part time function.

I have made the argument successfully that members need specialized training- in scenarios and mass exercise for critical incidents. And it’s slowly being rolled out in some districts. But training isn’t a panacea.

It is not weird for one of my people to be search and rescue trained, Ice rescue trained, wild land fire trained, child interview trained, be a school liaison, be on a community justice program, have court 5 days a month, carry several dozen active investigations (what they are actually supposed to be doing) EACH at any given time. They do their own court packages- something not regularly done, we do maintenance on trucks and boats, and several of them will also be training a new recruit.

This isn’t woe is me- this is the reality of an rcmp member. So these inquiries and news agencies always suggest that maybe it’s training: if it is there needs to be thousands more officers across the country like 25-30% overnight increase to staffing.

I had my own personal
Thoughts on that response. I still don’t understand a lot of that firehall stuff.

This meandering post was just because you caught my eye on the training thing- my question is when you say that (and in a genuine sense) - Which part of that event would you see addressed? Like is it the threat identification? Their carbine accuracy? The major event Response? What would it look like?

 

[Halifax Tar]

This meandering post was just because you caught my eye on the training thing- my question is when you say that (and in a genuine sense) - Which part of that event would you see addressed? Like is it the threat identification? Their carbine accuracy? The major event Response? What would it look like?

I'd like to know how that level judgmental error, incompetence, allows them continued employment with any police force ? They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a firearm for the rest of their lives.

 

[Jarnhamar]

MSN

 

[Booter]

I'd like to know how that level judgmental error, incompetence, allows them continued employment with any police force ? They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a firearm for the rest of their lives.

How would you like it taken from them? They are allowed to carry and use a firearm in the course of their duties. You have an unprecedented event- they weren’t charged because someone reviewed their actions and while they didn’t perhaps agree with them- they could reasonably see in the circumstances that it could happen. So no criminal charges.

There code of conduct, should they have been hung on that branch- I don’t know if they were or not, would be what? In the absence of extreme aggravating circumstances they wouldn’t have faced dismissal over it,

What mechanism would have been used?

If you want to open the books about making it easier to let police officers go because it’s just not working out that’s a different conversation, in the context of this event there isn’t a mechanism to take anything from them.

(And I don’t know enough to say one way or the other. I do trust the criminal reviews of events so I usually default to the idea I don’t have all the info)

 

[Haggis]

Two RCMP officers who shot at bystander during N.S. mass shooting say it was the right decision

Constables tell inquiry despite peppering the firehall being used as a comfort zone for evacuated civilians with rifle fire, they wouldn’t have done anything…

nationalpost.com

Well that was pretty embarrassing to read. I think a lot more training is in order.

On the bright side, had they been better with a carbine, they might have actually hit Mr. Westlake, so there is that to consider.

I know more than a few officers who will train off-duty. In fact, my gun club has just seen a significant influx of LEO members from several agencies.

And then there's my post 379 wherein I noted that the federal court has ruled that LE firearms training is sufficient and there is no need for off-duty practice with prohibited platforms. Le sigh...

 

[Halifax Tar]

How would you like it taken from them?

Surly the RCMP has a mechanism for release on the grounds of professional incompetence or something of the like.

These officers knew the risks and instead of approaching and investigating they simply opened fire on innocents and a shelter, with a victims family sheltering inside no less.

We kick people out out for far less.

 

[Booter]

MSN

I’m not going to make any assumptions about you. But as a guy who has taken a lot of pulses I don’t find this nearly as controversial as others here.

In fact a month ago I had someone take a pulse and call an ambulance on someone who was obviously deceased for well over an hour telling me they felt a
Pulse, they didn’t.

 

[Booter]

Surly the RCMP has a mechanism for release on the grounds of professional incompetence or something of the like.

These officers knew the risks and instead of approaching and investigating they simply opened fire on innocents and a shelter, with a victims family sheltering inside no less.

We kick people out out for far less.

I’m not saying this stuff because I agree. I just think you’d be shocked at how are system applies. Even in cases of criminality that we pursue dismissal,

The details of this event- when I take them to a hearing and I put them against similar incidents. What am I comparing it to?

They were not charged with negligence or anything related to the event, so when we drag them on to the carpet I take two people, who people wouldn’t charge and say “well they were pretty kinda negligent though but not criminally negligent”

And then I look for similar events, and then I add up their mitigating factors like the size and scope of the event.

They wouldn’t be facing dismissal.

There is no malice here. I doubt the forces releases, I certainly didn’t see it, for someone genuinely trying to do their job and not hitting the mark in extreme circumstances one time- without considering their careers in their totality, even if that miss is near catastrophic (like this one)

This is a really REALLY bad incident. It makes me groan everytime I read it, I don’t get it at all. But my experience with the conduct system- as an authority or an assisting officer doesn’t really see that you’d successfully get dismissal. I didn’t design the system and I don’t agree with it in lots of ways.

And for some extra frustration- these conduct matters take years to resolve and then they get appealed and that takes years. Even in the case of extreme cases where there is malice and criminal conduct.

And I am not making any comments specifically on these guys. Just in a general sense of the conduct system.

 

[Booter]

Anyhoo- I don’t want to overshare and be too comfy. I completely understand the shock when people look at our systems or dissect this stuff. I also have agreed and I am also frustrated Lots.

To be honest I believe the org can’t sustain itself like this for much longer. But I may be chicken little.

Remove this event, and the list of real issues facing us is still way too complex,

I would recommend where communities can switch to regional forces etc they do. Not because they’ll enjoy more success- but because when these places shoestring budget and overextend themselves- they’ll have to own it. Rather than pointing fingers at three levels of government.

Canadians spend a premium on police. They don’t get a return on investment for a variety of reasons.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I’m not going to make any assumptions about you. But as a guy who has taken a lot of pulses I don’t find this nearly as controversial as others here.

In fact a month ago I had someone take a pulse and call an ambulance on someone who was obviously deceased for well over an hour telling me they felt a
Pulse, they didn’t.

I'm 100% with you on this one. This provides more context to what happened.

If someone's adrenaline is through the roof it's easy to understand how they may miss a pulse or think they have one when it's absent.

I've done first aid on a kid that was obviously gone but at that point it was for the parents. It sounds like the victim here was in a similar state.



Court/investigation wise, what happens when two officers recall an event drastically differently? Are both accounts deemed inadmissible or is one deemed more credible and considered the more credible version?

 

[Booter]

Court/investigation wise, what happens when two officers recall an event drastically differently? Are both accounts deemed inadmissible or is one deemed more credible and considered the more credible version?

That’s a super good question. There are cases where experts on memory etc testify- if the differences in recall are so significant and they can be explained by the way people store info. That would have to be a pretty big event because expert testimony is a different beast for most court matters and the time court has for things.

The accounts would be examined to see if there is an honesty issue. But in the event that both are being honest, but just really diverge on the event, it could be possibly corroborated through other facts- like a third party witness that could be another version again- radio transmission, video.

Outside that they may gauge experience, and just the general nature of the account,

The one I’m thinking of specifically the judge discussed it in their decision, which parts of the testimony and why. Some were based on photos and the time of the year/lighting conditions. It really is wide open.

Recall is a pretty interesting subject in law enforcement and courts. I was involved in some things a few years ago that induced stress and made people recall distances and threats, some of the accounts between two partners could be wildly different- and usually the perception of danger towards their partner was higher than how they perceived a threat towards themselves

Anecdotally. But interestingly.