The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Fishbone Jones]

Doctors kill more people, than other people do with guns.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Doctors kill more people, than other people do with guns.

Especially in this country where it is basically impossible to sue a doctor for malpractice no matter how badly they screw up due to their old boys club protecting each other.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Doctors kill more people, than other people do with guns.

Can I get some stats on that ?

 

[Remius]

Can I get some stats on that ?

Not sure what the actual numbers are but that line of comparison may not be the best.

Medical Error Is Not the Third Leading Cause of Death

In the first episode of the television show The Resident, a nurse tells the young protagonist that medical error is the third leading cause of death in the United States after cancer and heart disease. “They don’t want us talking about that,” she adds. This shocking and unforgettable line did...

www.mcgill.ca

The article explains why it’s apples and oranges.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not sure what the actual numbers are but that line of comparison may not be the best.

Medical Error Is Not the Third Leading Cause of Death

In the first episode of the television show The Resident, a nurse tells the young protagonist that medical error is the third leading cause of death in the United States after cancer and heart disease. “They don’t want us talking about that,” she adds. This shocking and unforgettable line did...

www.mcgill.ca

The article explains why it’s apples and oranges.

Throw in excessive wait times for our systems, misdiagnoses, failure to account for drug interactions and finally pure negligence. You have a hard time finding stats that combine all that, from a system that's not keen on correcting itself. So I say the medical system very likely kills more people prematurely than the 289 people in 2018 murdered by guns.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not sure what the actual numbers are but that line of comparison may not be the best.

Medical Error Is Not the Third Leading Cause of Death

In the first episode of the television show The Resident, a nurse tells the young protagonist that medical error is the third leading cause of death in the United States after cancer and heart disease. “They don’t want us talking about that,” she adds. This shocking and unforgettable line did...

www.mcgill.ca

The article explains why it’s apples and oranges.

It looks like around 28'000 Canadians die each year due to medical mistakes [Canadian Patient Safety Institute (CPSI)].

 

[Remius]

It looks like around 28'000 Canadians die each year due to medical mistakes [Canadian Patient Safety Institute (CPSI)].

Again, using that example is still apples and oranges. I would prefer an argument that might be more comparable otherwise you fall into the same apple and orange arguments the gun opponents use.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I want to preface this by saying I support all lawful use of firearms. Be it hunting, sport shooting or otherwise. Do it safely, legally and have fun.

But hunting is the key, Its the facet most non gun Canadians can get behind, as a reason to own firearms. We can debate the guns needed to hunt, that's not my point. Hunting needs to leveraged to keep our foot in the door.

The problem is the pure hunters and pure sport shooters don't support each other. The Fudds and LARPers...

I do think this is changing somewhat now. With the liberals twice directly (mistakenly) listing hunting firearms on the banned list.

I think a lot of hunters were “meh” over the handguns stuff. Then when it was guns used in the woods n stuff they suddenly went “we goofed” and are now over the shock of the extent of the proposed ban.

Mark my words; crossbows and +60lb draw bows are next if this doesn’t stop soon.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Again, using that example is still apples and oranges. I would prefer an argument that might be more comparable otherwise you fall into the same apple and orange arguments the gun opponents use.

It looks like the study doesn't even touch Canadians numbers but sure, maybe it's not the 3rd leading cause of death on the US.

Are you refuting the 28,000 per year figure of medical mistakes costing lives in Canada?

Anti-gun proponents are quit to cite suicides as a preventable death statistic in gun deaths. Why can't I cite 28,000 preventable deaths per year when I'm looking at where money and effort is better spent?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Instead you can pay $26.87/kg for chicken breasts form Loblaws.

And those chickens don’t form any part of a toxic food industry using chemical and hormones etc…they are perfectly healthy and not being shot up with saline on the packaging line.

 

[Remius]

It looks like the study doesn't even touch Canadians numbers but sure, maybe it's not the 3rd leading cause of death on the US.

Are you refuting the 28,000 per year figure of medical mistakes costing lives in Canada?

Anti-gun proponents are quit to cite suicides as a preventable death statistic in gun deaths. Why can't I cite 28,000 preventable deaths per year when I'm looking at where money and effort is better spent?

Why would I refute the numbers? I don’t know how they came to them or the data though so I am not in a position to refute it or the source. That isn’t my point.

Do you find the suicide numbers by guns a convincing or valid argument on their part? I certainly don’t. Nor do I find the medical mistakes a good counter argument.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ya the deer population is probably more affected by weather and predation than anything else.

Hear in NS, we have had a really spring like winter. Should bode well for next fall.

Come on, mid-September!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Do you find the suicide numbers by guns a convincing or valid argument on their part? I certainly don’t. Nor do I find the medical mistakes a good counter argument.

I find the medical mistakes number a good example when people take a "if it just saves one life" or "but suicides" approach to debating deaths with firearms. Especially when doctors like Dr Allan Drummond chime in.

I don't see people demanding the government address the issue of 77 people dying a day due to medical mistakes.

[that said that number seems incredibly high which makes me doubt the 28,000 per year,but maybe it's accurate.]

 

[Kat Stevens]

77 x 365 = 28105

 

[Remius]

I find the medical mistakes number a good example when people take a "if it just saves one life" or "but suicides" approach to debating deaths with firearms. Especially when doctors like Dr Allan Drummond chime in.

I don't see people demanding the government address the issue of 77 people dying a day due to medical mistakes.

I think if you watch the news a bit our health care issues are the number one issue right now. Also mistakes may not all be negligent mistakes. The article I posted explains how those numbers are calculated. Not everything is negligence. Also there are 14 million hospital admissions a year, when you do the math that is like 0.002 mistakes that lead to death.

[that said that number seems incredibly high which makes me doubt the 28,000 per year,but maybe it's accurate.]

If you want to tit for tat then sure but it won’t convince anyone if that is the goal. Use real relatable data. They use suicide by firearms, it is still related to firearms. Medical mistakes are not. There is no link.

Rather take that suicide by firearms rate and compare it to our rate of gun ownership in comparison to maybe peer countries or geo political areas. There may be some correlations as well if our rate of gun ownership declines yet suicide by gun still happens. Or maybe guns are owned predominantly by men. Maybe men have a higher suicide rate in the first place. Maybe be we have a suicide problem and not a gun problem. That sort of thing.

I mean, use whatever argument you want. I just find the pro gun side not being very effective in their approach when they use arguments like medical mistake stats or dog related deaths or shark attacks or whatever.

I say this as someone who had his mind changed almost two decades ago. And it wasn’t with outbursts of anger or apple and orange comparisons that had nothing to do with it. It just took the right guy to explain it in terms that made sense and me having an open mind. I use the same approach with some people I know. I may not have convinced them but I know I have softened some of their stances with a few.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I think if you watch the news a bit our health care issues are the number one issue right now. Also mistakes may not all be negligent mistakes. The article I posted explains how those numbers are calculated. Not everything is negligence. Also there are 14 million hospital admissions a year, when you do the math that is like 0.002 mistakes that lead to death.

If you want to tit for tat then sure but it won’t convince anyone if that is the goal. Use real relatable data. They use suicide by firearms, it is still related to firearms. Medical mistakes are not. There is no link.

Rather take that suicide by firearms rate and compare it to our rate of gun ownership in comparison to maybe peer countries or geo political areas. There may be some correlations as well if our rate of gun ownership declines yet suicide by gun still happens. Or maybe guns are owned predominantly by men. Maybe men have a higher suicide rate in the first place. Maybe be we have a suicide problem and not a gun problem. That sort of thing.

I mean, use whatever argument you want. I just find the pro gun side not being very effective in their approach when they use arguments like medical mistake stats or dog related deaths or shark attacks or whatever.

I say this as someone who had his mind changed almost two decades ago. And it wasn’t with outbursts of anger or apple and orange comparisons that had nothing to do with it. It just took the right guy to explain it in terms that made sense and me having an open mind. I use the same approach with some people I know. I may not have convinced them but I know I have softened some of their stances with a few.

Suicide by firearm is a red herring. Firearms do not increase or decrease suicides. It is simply a tool some will use. When access to firearms go down, the suicide rate still stays the same, the method simply changes.

Much how the ‘firearm murder rate’ is a red herring argument. Again murder doesn’t go down the method just changes.

 

[Remius]

Suicide by firearm is a red herring. Firearms do not increase or decrease suicides. It is simply a tool some will use. When access to firearms go down, the suicide rate still stays the same, the method simply changes.

Much how the ‘firearm murder rate’ is a red herring argument. Again murder doesn’t go down the method just changes.

That was my point. Deconstruct the argument. Throwing meaningless comparisons does nothing. So if someone uses the suicide argument do what you did, who cares if medical mistakes have a higher rate of death in the context of that argument.

 

[Haggis]

The doctor I posted earlier testified on Bill C-71 and said his testimony would focus on suicide and intimate partner violence, not crime. Last time I checked, intimate partner violence is a crime. Stay in your lane, doc.

 

[OldSolduer]

The doctor I posted earlier testified on Bill C-71 and said his testimony would focus on suicide and intimate partner violence, not crime. Last time I checked, intimate partner violence is a crime. Stay in your lane, doc.

Fuckn bingo.

 

[OldSolduer]

Suicide by firearm is a red herring. Firearms do not increase or decrease suicides. It is simply a tool some will use. When access to firearms go down, the suicide rate still stays the same, the method simply changes.

Much how the ‘firearm murder rate’ is a red herring argument. Again murder doesn’t go down the method just changes.

You're correct - there is about 4000 suicides every year in Canada - about 11 per day. Not all of them use firearms. Firearms are an almost sure way to suicide.