New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

I have seen a few polls recently that suggest Canadians think that they really do need to boost Defence spending, and the CAF is woefully equipped.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Canada to be expected to do at least 2%.
Frankly I agree with @Edward Campbell that Canada could afford to go to 4% for a short time, and frankly I think that it at least should go for 3% for a period to simply manage recapitalizations on missing and rusting equipment.

Personally as a Canadian too (I’m a dual citizen), I’d like to see the RCN with 24 CSC, 6 Amphibious ships (2 each for East and West Cost, and 2 spares for refit etc) 12 SSN, 12 ‘Corvettes’ and 6 AOR plus the AOPS
But that’s just me, and only taxes down here not up there (thank god).

Yes, but what does this guy think?

Ding Xuexiang​

Chairperson, CCICEDVice Premier, China
Ding Xuexiang was endorsed as China’s Vice Premier at the 14th National People’s Congress in March 2023. Xuexiang is currently a member of the Standing Committee of the Chinese Communist Party’s “Central Committee Political Bureau” and secretary of the Working Committee of the “Central Party and State Institutions”. Xuexiang was born in 1962 and first joined the Chinese Communist Party in 1984.

 

[Underway]

There are reasons why Pierre Poilievre is not banging the defence spending drum; not even one seat, anywhere in Canada, will turn on that issue.

Ah but there are multiple seats that would turn if they canceled the current spending. ISI might not be everyones favourite organization but canceling shipbuilding in Halifax would be a disaster politically. Just as shutting down GDLS in London Ontario would be the same.

Davie got back in the game because of political pressure from MPP's and MP's.

As for a reduction in CSC, I think it would actually be 11 because the builds are grouped as 3, 4 , 4, 4. At a point in each block they are going to look at the ship and modify going forward with lessons learned and perhaps requirements to a changing combat environment.

But if you are changing the shipdesign every 3 or 4 ships is it still CSC? I mean I could say arbitrarily that CSC stops at 7 ship and then next 8 are called the Canadian Destroyer Program. Then break the budget into two, change the narrative on the cost and carry on. The ship differences would be evolutionary vice revolutionary and likely look pretty similar to the original 7 but with some differences as its 14 years after the first CSC was built.

Lets not get hung up on the number of CSC. Its a name of a program. Lets get hung up on if they decide to stop the NSS and stop continuously building ships. Lets get hung up on if the gov't stops building the combatants Canada needs. If then we decide at some point that we have enough destroyers and want to build a new GP frigate that's ok.

As long as we keep building.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As long as they keep the Type 26 hull/machinery and general layout, they will all be "CSC's", just like all 20 of the old steamers were considered "St-Laurent's" even though they were in fact four different batches (7xST-LAURENT, 7X RESTIGOUCHE, 4X MACKENZIE, 2X ANNAPOLIS), or just as the various batches of American Arleigh Burke are all "Arleigh Burke" vessels. As I have mentioned before, it's the hull/power plant/general compartment layout that makes the class, not the combat system/weapons loadout combination.

 

[suffolkowner]

As long as they keep the Type 26 hull/machinery and general layout, they will all be "CSC's", just like all 20 of the old steamers were considered "St-Laurent's" even though they were in fact four different batches (7xST-LAURENT, 7X RESTIGOUCHE, 4X MACKENZIE, 2X ANNAPOLIS), or just as the various batches of American Arleigh Burke are all "Arleigh Burke" vessels. As I have mentioned before, it's the hull/power plant/general compartment layout that makes the class, not the combat system/weapons loadout combination.

how much wiggle room is there? Like if the ship grows another 5 or 10 m?

 

[Kirkhill]

Ah but there are multiple seats that would turn if they canceled the current spending. ISI might not be everyones favourite organization but canceling shipbuilding in Halifax would be a disaster politically. Just as shutting down GDLS in London Ontario would be the same.

Davie got back in the game because of political pressure from MPP's and MP's.

As for a reduction in CSC, I think it would actually be 11 because the builds are grouped as 3, 4 , 4, 4. At a point in each block they are going to look at the ship and modify going forward with lessons learned and perhaps requirements to a changing combat environment.

But if you are changing the shipdesign every 3 or 4 ships is it still CSC? I mean I could say arbitrarily that CSC stops at 7 ship and then next 8 are called the Canadian Destroyer Program. Then break the budget into two, change the narrative on the cost and carry on. The ship differences would be evolutionary vice revolutionary and likely look pretty similar to the original 7 but with some differences as its 14 years after the first CSC was built.

Lets not get hung up on the number of CSC. Its a name of a program. Lets get hung up on if they decide to stop the NSS and stop continuously building ships. Lets get hung up on if the gov't stops building the combatants Canada needs. If then we decide at some point that we have enough destroyers and want to build a new GP frigate that's ok.

As long as we keep building.

Oldgateboatdriver said:
As long as they keep the Type 26 hull/machinery and general layout, they will all be "CSC's", just like all 20 of the old steamers were considered "St-Laurent's" even though they were in fact four different batches (7xST-LAURENT, 7X RESTIGOUCHE, 4X MACKENZIE, 2X ANNAPOLIS), or just as the various batches of American Arleigh Burke are all "Arleigh Burke" vessels. As I have mentioned before, it's the hull/power plant/general compartment layout that makes the class, not the combat system/weapons loadout combination.

What happens if the CSC programme doesn't buy as many missiles for the silos? As many rounds for the guns? Decoys? Decides to convert the last six into Absolons instead? (I know Denmark has upgraded them from Command and Support to ASW but what is to prevent a Canadian government adjusting the "design" on later flights and modifying the scope of supply?

The good news for the RCN is that as long as it gets 15 keels in saltwater it can always look at revisions, upgrades and UORs to build out the fleet to meet the needs of the times. Even if they have to man half the fleet with skeleton crews.

 

[Stoker]

What happens if the CSC programme doesn't buy as many missiles for the silos? As many rounds for the guns? Decoys? Decides to convert the last six into Absolons instead? (I know Denmark has upgraded them from Command and Support to ASW but what is to prevent a Canadian government adjusting the "design" on later flights and modifying the scope of supply?

The good news for the RCN is that as long as it gets 15 keels in saltwater it can always look at revisions, upgrades and UORs to build out the fleet to meet the needs of the times. Even if they have to man half the fleet with skeleton crews.

What happens if they don't enough spare parts? You'll drive yourself crazy considering all the what if's. I would say we'll have one reload per ship if we're lucky. Do we even have the storage and maintenance facilities for a large number of reloads, I would bet no. We can always reload at a American facility I suppose.

 

[Kirkhill]

What happens if they don't enough spare parts? You'll drive yourself crazy considering all the what if's. I would say we'll have one reload per ship if we're lucky. Do we even have the storage and maintenance facilities for a large number of reloads, I would bet no. We can always reload at a American facility I suppose.

Craziness are I

My larger point is that the programme costs can be radically modified to meet political needs while the project rolls merrily along.

With the right accountant I have no doubt that a government of the day could claim they got 15 hulls in the water for 300 MUSD apiece like the original Absolons just by stripping out costs and either applying them to separate projects (eg a joint RCN/CA/RCAF missile project?) or punting them into the never never.

Or conversely inflating costs to meet international obligations.

 

[DBNSG]

Given the turbulent waters the World seems to be heading into for the next couple of decades perhaps the NSSP will be a more permanent Expression of Government Policy than we know. If after all this Trudeau HAS NOT questioned, let alone muse about reducing then perhaps Naval/CG procurement has accomplished what Harper wanted it to. Become a permanent extension of the Public Service. NATO and no doubt the Whitehouse have probably given Canada some credit to at least have a Naval replacement plan and Yards delivering. In Ottawa's case that is all that matters in a political sense, The Naval file is being delivered.

I can see the difficulty for Ottawa moving forward will be the Sub replacement as their will be no Canadian champion or riding that directly profits from that program. For Ottawa, Submarines are an existential question of Canadian Identity and intent.
Ottawa looks at Defence as a "do we have to" obligation like a child being told to clean their room. Much stomping and whining but eventually an effort is made. Submarines might not survive the whining. Should they I can see our eventual fleet being the following.

The CSC's not only survive but I see 18 hulls as a future Government will make the easier decision to keep building then dare to shut down a hot line. The 8 AOPS will turn out to be a rather successful Ford 650 Work truck for the Country doing those Naval and Coast Guard unsung duties that can span Arctic to African waters. We should buy 10 versions of the new Dutch/Belgian MineHunting design in another decade after the Walloons work out the kinks. Should the Koreans deliver on the LIon Battery Tech for the second tranche of the KSS-III then tag on another 8 for us. I would have Seaspan build a third and Fourth Berlin as MV Asterix nears the end of its life. This collection will deliver an affordable and capable effort for a Country of our size.

Davie should be the Coast Guards Ice breaker builder if not only for the capability, but the Politics of shuushing Quebec has a value all on its own. I would also develop some National policies to create a RCN auxiliary fleet that would encompass the Seagoing Ferries to Newfoundland and the smaller Federal fleets that service NS-PEI and NS-NB as well as the Magdalen Island Ferry. Those Ships could move almost an entire Mech Brigade in one lift if all the ships were used for a trans Atlantic push. Pay the Volunteer crews, to be escorted by designated Canadian Coast Guard vessels, also volunteer but VERY well paid, is an Idea worth exploring and regularly exercised

 

[dapaterson]

The White House desire for increased Canadian spending will be tempered in the case of submarines because there's no US domestic non-nuclear production, and the dollars associated with ancillary work aren't interesting enough.

On the other hand, Bombardier does manufacture watercraft...

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have seen a few polls recently that suggest Canadians think that they really do need to boost Defence spending, and the CAF is woefully equipped.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Canada to be expected to do at least 2%.
Frankly I agree with @Edward Campbell that Canada could afford to go to 4% for a short time, and frankly I think that it at least should go for 3% for a period to simply manage recapitalizations on missing and rusting equipment.

Personally as a Canadian too (I’m a dual citizen), I’d like to see the RCN with 24 CSC, 6 Amphibious ships (2 each for East and West Cost, and 2 spares for refit etc) 12 SSN, 12 ‘Corvettes’ and 6 AOR plus the AOPS
But that’s just me, and only taxes down here not up there (thank god).

You and I are on the same team. It's the rest of Canada I question.

 

[suffolkowner]

You and I are on the same team. It's the rest of Canada I question.

sometimes thats why you need leaders to lead. Everyone knows what to do but someone has to make the first step. Paying our way shouldnt be this big a deal

 

[Kirkhill]

Craziness are I

My larger point is that the programme costs can be radically modified to meet political needs while the project rolls merrily along.

With the right accountant I have no doubt that a government of the day could claim they got 15 hulls in the water for 300 MUSD apiece like the original Absolons just by stripping out costs and either applying them to separate projects (eg a joint RCN/CA/RCAF missile project?) or punting them into the never never.

Or conversely inflating costs to meet international obligations.

It strikes me that a lot of that is Treasury Board work....

I wonder how Nikki Haley and Anita would get on together.

And, for that matter, Rishi.

 

[lenaitch]

Davie should be the Coast Guards Ice breaker builder if not only for the capability, but the Politics of shuushing Quebec has a value all on its own. I would also develop some National policies to create a RCN auxiliary fleet that would encompass the Seagoing Ferries to Newfoundland and the smaller Federal fleets that service NS-PEI and NS-NB as well as the Magdalen Island Ferry. Those Ships could move almost an entire Mech Brigade in one lift if all the ships were used for a trans Atlantic push. Pay the Volunteer crews, to be escorted by designated Canadian Coast Guard vessels, also volunteer but VERY well paid, is an Idea worth exploring and regularly exercised

Are you saying the current east coast ferry fleets are capable of a North Atlantic crossing, or they should be? Seems a little overkill for routes like NS-PEI where you can essentially see the other side.

A CCG escort, assuming armed, would require a re-roling and re-equipping of the CCG which is a topic unto itself. You can't simply pay them more and hand them a gun.

 

[DBNSG]

Are you saying the current east coast ferry fleets are capable of a North Atlantic crossing, or they should be? Seems a little overkill for routes like NS-PEI where you can essentially see the other side.

A CCG escort, assuming armed, would require a re-roling and re-equipping of the CCG which is a topic unto itself. You can't simply pay them more and hand them a gun.

The Ferry's that sail between North Sydney and Newfoundland most certainly can and I would even say the Fundy Rose could go in Summer waters. I have sailed the Fundy Rose and its quite Comfortable and sails at 20 Knots. It could carry all the vehicles and gear for an Armoured Recce Squadron. I agree that the Coast Guard personnel have a very different work culture but the CCG Leonard Cowley has participated in Nanook exercises. Whats to stop the leadership of the Coast Guard to lead on this?

I think over time certain ships could be enticed to participate as an auxiliary to begin to change the Civil service mindset to an Auxiliary Navy one. Pay incentives with younger crews could start the process.

 

[Stoker]

The Ferry's that sail between North Sydney and Newfoundland most certainly can and I would even say the Fundy Rose could go in Summer waters. I have sailed the Fundy Rose and its quite Comfortable and sails at 20 Knots. It could carry all the vehicles and gear for an Armoured Recce Squadron. I agree that the Coast Guard personnel have a very different work culture but the CCG Leonard Cowley has participated in Nanook exercises. Whats to stop the leadership of the Coast Guard to lead on this?

I think over time certain ships could be enticed to participate as an auxiliary to begin to change the Civil service mindset to an Auxiliary Navy one. Pay incentives with younger crews could start the process.

Yes and the removal of ferries between NS and NL for wartime use is not a good idea. The majority of supplies from the province come in on those ferries.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Yes and the removal of ferries between NS and NL for wartime use is not a good idea. The majority of supplies from the province come in on those ferries.

If any anything they are one more asset that will require protection .

 

[Good2Golf]

The White House desire for increased Canadian spending will be tempered in the case of submarines because there's no US domestic non-nuclear production, and the dollars associated with ancillary work aren't interesting enough.

On the other hand, Bombardier does manufacture watercraft...

Bombardier ( BBD.TSE) has had nothing to do with watercraft for 1/5 of a century. Perhaps you’re thinking of BRP (DOO.TSX), majority owned by the Bombardier and Beaudoin families?

 

[dapaterson]

Bombardier ( BBD.TSE) has had nothing to do with watercraft for 1/5 of a century. Perhaps you’re thinking of BRP (DOO.TSX), majority owned by the Bombardier and Beaudoin families?

All the same collection of grifters. Irving wannabes.

 

[Kirkhill]

Are you saying the current east coast ferry fleets are capable of a North Atlantic crossing, or they should be? Seems a little overkill for routes like NS-PEI where you can essentially see the other side.

A CCG escort, assuming armed, would require a re-roling and re-equipping of the CCG which is a topic unto itself. You can't simply pay them more and hand them a gun.

The Ferry's that sail between North Sydney and Newfoundland most certainly can and I would even say the Fundy Rose could go in Summer waters. I have sailed the Fundy Rose and its quite Comfortable and sails at 20 Knots. It could carry all the vehicles and gear for an Armoured Recce Squadron. I agree that the Coast Guard personnel have a very different work culture but the CCG Leonard Cowley has participated in Nanook exercises. Whats to stop the leadership of the Coast Guard to lead on this?

I think over time certain ships could be enticed to participate as an auxiliary to begin to change the Civil service mindset to an Auxiliary Navy one. Pay incentives with younger crews could start the process.

I agree with this.

You can see from one side of the Irish Sea to the other in many places but the ferries run by P&O and Stenaline, like those of Maersk and DFDS in the Baltic could all handle North Atlantic crossings. In fact it was a ferry like that that transported 2 Para to the Falklands. She normally ran the North Sea from Hull to Rotterdam.

Marine Atlantic's fleet as it stands would all be capable of managing the transit.

MV Atlantic Vision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MV Leif Ericson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MV Highlanders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

MV Blue Puttees - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even Bay Ferries Fundy Rose could contribute.

MV Fundy Rose - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes and the removal of ferries between NS and NL for wartime use is not a good idea. The majority of supplies from the province come in on those ferries.

So the solution is to ensure there is surplus capacity in peacetime to ensure that in wartime or emergency the minimum capacity remains even if assets are surged away from their peacetime duties.

If any anything they are one more asset that will require protection .

A job for the local Naval Reserve?

This Containerized Missile Launcher Could Give Almost Any Ship Short-Range Air Defenses

The system works against small boats as well and could be a cost-effective point air defense system on land, too.

www.thedrive.com

 

[DBNSG]

Yes and the removal of ferries between NS and NL for wartime use is not a good idea. The majority of supplies from the province come in on those ferries.

Oceanex and their three ships also supply Newf. There's an old saying in Newfoundland that all a man needs to survive is a punt, a Pig and a Patch. In my experience Newfs are just a tougher bunch and very adaptable but yes that's no reason to starve anyone.
Keep in mind that at this time of year the CN fleets priorities are tourists and Grocery Trailers . The building supplies I sell get there when they get there. If Putin exhibited any more stupid and crossed the Polish border would the Government not look at all options to move Gagetown to Latvia ASAP? In the end you go with what you got.