Halifax Tar
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Nor should they.
That's a Lion and Lioness for parents. Much respect and reverence.
Hamas invaded Israel 2023 Megathread
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Nor should they.
That's a Lion and Lioness for parents. Much respect and reverence.
KevinB
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The only issue I have with that, is the Israeli response is killing a lot of non combatants.
Agreed.
KevinB
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Tom Cooper on the entire Mess Israel/Palestine, 10 October 2023: Strategy of blanc Terror
I don’t fully agree with him, but he does make a lot of good points.
I don’t fully agree with him, but he does make a lot of good points.
Halifax Tar
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Which Israel wouldn't have been put into the position to do if its neighbors weren't bent on genocide against the Jewish population of the world.
To me that's the difference. I've never heard the Israeli Gov come out and call for the extermination of Muslims, but I hear calls for that from all kinds of Muslim based governments/organizations/terrorist groups against the Jewish population.
Again, if I have missed and the Israeli Gov has called for that I'm willing to be educated.
KevinB
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The Israeli Government was warned by both foreign governments and their own Military Intelligence that this sort of event was going to occur.
Journalists, Doctors etc have been killed in Israeli responses.
My point is that proportionality needs to be considered when conducting operations in civilian areas.
I’m absolutely enthusiastic about killing Hamas, Hezbollah, IRGC etc terrorists.
I’m not a fan of JDAM’ing hospitals, schools etc.
The moral high ground needs to be occupied at all times by actions.
200000 have left Gaza, hopefully the cowards that participated in the massacres aren't amongst them. But that is an issue as old as war itself and a great deal of training goes in to learning how to distinguish between combatants and not. But every Israeli is going to be fighting with a tear in their eye. Could you remain objective?
Halifax Tar
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Agree, JADM'ing/bombing non military targets should be avoided at all costs. Up and until your foe uses those places as shields to hide behind. Then that changes the ball game.
Hell, we fire bombed whole German and Japanese cities in dubya dubya two. Understanding our bombing back then was much less accurate.
gryphonv
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What happens to Iran in this?
I'm sure they are just as culpable as Hamas. They may not have pulled the trigger but its pretty much guaranteed they were involved in the supply and planning.
They are using Palestine as a puppet state to draw Israel into getting their hands dirty and losing rep with the international community.
Even to this day one of their stated objectives is the destruction of Israel.
Israel commonly conducts air raids into Iran, but I'm sure some of their leaders are now discussing something more drastic.
I'm sure they are just as culpable as Hamas. They may not have pulled the trigger but its pretty much guaranteed they were involved in the supply and planning.
They are using Palestine as a puppet state to draw Israel into getting their hands dirty and losing rep with the international community.
Even to this day one of their stated objectives is the destruction of Israel.
Israel commonly conducts air raids into Iran, but I'm sure some of their leaders are now discussing something more drastic.
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Some additional vocabulary for the discussion
Ashkenazi - About half of Jewish people around the world today identify as Ashkenazi, meaning that they descend from Jews who lived in Central or Eastern Europe. The term was initially used to define a distinct cultural group of Jews who settled in the 10th century in the Rhineland in western Germany.
Yiddish - the language of the Ashkenazim, central and eastern European Jews and their descendants.
Pale of Settlement - a western region of the Russian Empire with varying borders that existed from 1791 to 1917 (de facto until 1915) in which permanent residency by Jews was allowed and beyond which Jewish residency, permanent or temporary,[1] was mostly forbidden.
The Pale of Settlement included all of modern-day Belarus and Moldova, much of Lithuania, Ukraine and east-central Poland, and relatively small parts of Latvia and what is now the western Russian Federation. It extended from the eastern pale, or demarcation line inside the country, westwards to the Imperial Russian border with the Kingdom of Prussia (later the German Empire) and Austria-Hungary. Furthermore, it comprised about 20% of the territory of European Russia and largely corresponded to historical lands of the former Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, Cossack Hetmanate, the Ottoman Empire (with Yedisan), Crimean Khanate, and eastern Principality of Moldavia (Bessarabia).
Shtetl - a small Jewish town or village in eastern Europe.
Ghetto - the Jewish quarter in a city.
Pogrom - a violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group, particularly Jews.
Significant pogroms in the Russian Empire included the Odessa pogroms, Warsaw pogrom (1881), Kishinev pogrom (1903), Kiev pogrom (1905), and Białystok pogrom (1906). After the collapse of the Russian Empire in 1917, several pogroms occurred amidst the power struggles in Eastern Europe, including the Lwów pogrom (1918) and Kiev pogroms (1919).
Zionism - the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Zionism initially emerged in Central and Eastern Europe as a national revival movement in the late 19th century, both in reaction to newer waves of antisemitism and as a response to Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment.[12][13][14] Soon after this, most leaders of the movement associated the main goal with creating the desired homeland in Palestine, then an area controlled by the Ottoman Empire.
Rosh Pinna - was established as Gei Oni in 1878 by local Jews from Safed but was nearly abandoned, except for the families of Yosef Friedman, Aharon Keller, and possibly a few others.[2] In 1882, thirty Jewish families who had immigrated from Romania reestablished the settlement as a moshava called Rosh Pina.
Petah Tikva - It was founded in 1878, mainly by Haredi Jews of the Old Yishuv, and became a permanent settlement in 1883 with the financial help of Baron Edmond de Rothschild.
Holocaust - the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population. The murders were carried out primarily through mass shootings and poison gas in extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and Chełmno in occupied Poland.
1947-1948 Civil War in Palestine -
1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia
The Wiki article on the 47 war in Palestine is a good refresher.
Courtesy of Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica.
To try to understand is not to excuse. And that applies to both sides.
We have two damaged peoples occupying the same space.
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They are probably about as culpable as the Americans are.
Everyone meddles in Israel for their own domestic purposes. The people who pay the most are those living on the ground in Israel (note- I am using Israel as short hand to include Gaza and the West Bank).
Western politicians will stare at their feet and generally ignore hardline Israeli settlers burning/killing Palestinians out of homes. Any hint of retaliation and the IDF has to defend the Israeli settler.
On the other side, Hamas hotheads are only too happy to plot ways of killing jews in the most horrific way possible.
Hamas will win by losing. Israel will lose by winning. The only benefactor is…Russia. Everyone will take their eye off Ukraine and the horrific crimes that they have committed and the Putin regime will skate.
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Hamas should have checked passports, they're decisively in the Find Out stage of FAFO.
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daftandbarmy
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Halifax Tar
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They certainly seem to be in a hurry
Those monsters can move.
gryphonv
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It really is deceiving how fast they can be.
gryphonv
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Gotta love the 'impartial ' news org we all have to pay for.
daftandbarmy
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Especially when you are a Canadian frigate that's supposed to be able to keep up so you can 'protect' the flat top, but can't.
Or so I've been told
Halifax Tar
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Thats a portion of our tax dollars wat work for ya.
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