Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[Good2Golf]

Do we have our own foreign policy? Yes

So buy them from France.

Or let them loan them to us, like the Poles have been rumoured to be working…and like the US did with us in exchange for shutting down the Arrow.

 

[FJAG]

I wouldn't say it's fantastical or unreasonable to consider those scenarios, since a version of the latter is playing out right before our eyes right now

You say a lot has happened in the last 3 years...what are you thinking of though, exactly? (Russian-Ukrainian war?)

Basically Russia on Ukraine and the bellicose posture of CCCP v 2.0 and the Trump 2.0 presidency and all of its flip flopping and lunacy. . . . and you've got to remember that the crap I've lived through goes back to CCCP 1.0 and the Cold War including being taught how to hide under a school desk in case of nuclear attack and the Soviet assaults into Hungary and Czechoslovakia, several iterations of Trudeau 1.0 governance and walking the streets of Montreal in a helmet and carrying a rifle, Vietnam, Vietnam war protests and the race riots down south, and a few things like that. The last three years' and this year's shit is on a whole new level.

 

[Underway]

Pay does not increase retention significantly. Australia tried this. It doesn't work.

So given that it doesn't work we need something else.

 

[dapaterson]

Pay does not increase retention significantly. Australia tried this. It doesn't work.

So given that it doesn't work we need something else.

Like... Strategic HR plans that don't involve the same old shit?

 

[McG]

I did weapons support stuff. And a lot of the contractors essentially rely on the CAF to train personnel. I don't want to imagine what they'll start charging if they have to train people to do it.

But on the face of it, I don't disgaree with your idea of civilianizing all third line and maybe a good chunk of second line.

What does 2nd line mean to you?

 

[ytz]

Retention bonuses are not salary. Different things.

Call it what you want. It's $$$ in the pocket.

You can give a "retention bonus" of $1000/mo if you want. I don't think people would care very much what it's called.

Pay does not increase retention significantly. Australia tried this. It doesn't work.

A comparison that is irrelevant without analysis of context. How much did they give? Who did this give it to? What were their goals and metrics?

We could all get $100/mo more in pay and I doubt it would do much for retention too. What matters is total compensation and quality of life, which is also enabled by that total compensation. I've explained this before. We can provide housing. Or we can provide housing allowances that let people get the housing they want. Or we can increase pay so that people can get the housing they want. We failed at COA 1. We are on our way to failing at COA 2 right now. What's left? Personally, I think fixing COA 2 is better. But I have literally watched the CAF fail on this for most of my career. So it's hard to trust the plan here.

What does 2nd line mean to you?

Depot level and engineering support more civilianized than today.

 

[Remius]

Call it what you want. It's $$$ in the pocket.

You can give a "retention bonus" of $1000/mo if you want. I don't think people would care very much what it's called.

those finer points are important if you want it managed well. And it’s different money in your pocket.

The fact that people making 72k a year are couch surfing tells me that financial literacy is an issue in this country. That isn’t really a CAF problem as it is an education problem.

 

[Remius]

Call it what you want. It's $$$ in the pocket.

You can give a "retention bonus" of $1000/mo if you want. I don't think people would care very much what it's called.



A comparison that is irrelevant without analysis of context. How much did they give? Who did this give it to? What were their goals and metrics?

It’s irrelevant to you because you haven’t taken the time to look at it and want it spoon fed to you.

They are the highest paid force. We are second. They are a peer nation likely the closest peer nation to us. Retention is still an issue. Pay is not the problem and if we keep thinking it is we won’t fix anything.

We could all get $100/mo more in pay and I doubt it would do much for retention too. What matters is total compensation and quality of life, which is also enabled by that total compensation. I've explained this before. We can provide housing. Or we can provide housing allowances that let people get the housing they want.

0% mortgages. Easy. No hassle and if outsourced to proper experts the CAF won’t screw it up.

Or we can increase pay so that people can get the housing they want. We failed at COA 1. We are on our way to failing at COA 2 right now. What's left? Personally, I think fixing COA 2 is better. But I have literally watched the CAF fail on this for most of my career. So it's hard to trust the plan here.

The CAF a will just abandon housing more with any pay hikes. That is exactky what it is doing now. And people who can’t manage money will still couch surf.

 

[YZT580]

It’s irrelevant to you because you haven’t taken the time to look at it and want it spoon fed to you.

They are the highest paid force. We are second. They are a peer nation likely the closest peer nation to us. Retention is still an issue. Pay is not the problem and if we keep thinking it is we won’t fix anything.

0% mortgages. Easy. No hassle and if outsourced to proper experts the CAF won’t screw it up.

The CAF a will just abandon housing more with any pay hikes. That is exactky what it is doing now. And people who can’t manage money will still couch surf.

this is all providing you can get the federal unions to buy into this sweetheart deal for what is a small part of the federal payrolls. Good luck with that. There is no one more vocal than a 5th increment clerk who sees an office coffeepot and a 2 piece sofa in an adjacent department

 

[MilEME09]

Interestingly, I am reading that the federal liberals are seriously looking into both of the European 6th Gen fighter programs (with the British one being favored), would be a smart buy in for industry if we can get on as a partner with the Brits, Italians, and Japanese.

 

[Remius]

this is all providing you can get the federal unions to buy into this sweetheart deal for what is a small part of the federal payrolls. Good luck with that. There is no one more vocal than a 5th increment clerk who sees an office coffeepot and a 2 piece sofa in an adjacent department

We’ve had the CAF and RCMP get benefits that others haven’t gotten before. Why would they have any say? And when have they ever complained?

To be honest the only complaints I hear are from the CAF when the PS gets something they don’t.

 

[lenaitch]

One side consideration of going too heavy on the allowance side is it may not be considered pensionable earnings. More money now but perhaps no more money down the road.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interestingly, I am reading that the federal liberals are seriously looking into both of the European 6th Gen fighter programs (with the British one being favored), would be a smart buy in for industry if we can get on as a partner with the Brits, Italians, and Japanese.

I like that we are looking forward and trying to lean into it.

But the here a now will punch us in the nose if we don't get the CF18s replaced soon.

 

[ytz]

It’s irrelevant to you because you haven’t taken the time to look at it and want it spoon fed to you.

It's irrelevant to all readers because it wasn't explained in any depth. I'd like to know specifically why their experience is applicable to us.

0% mortgages. Easy. No hassle and if outsourced to proper experts the CAF won’t screw it up.

The housing problem in the CAF is similar to society. But worse. Notably, the problem starts long before they buy. To get to the point where they have a mortgage, they need rent low enough to save for a downpayment. Also, O% mortgage doesn't fix childcare, finding a family doctor, etc.

The CAF a will just abandon housing more with any pay hikes. That is exactky what it is doing now.

CFHA has been recapitalizing the housing stock they have. The cuts era is over. Although it sucks, that the politicians let it get this bad.

And people who can’t manage money will still couch surf.

While you might think it's just fine to tolerate this, it's literally a security threat that is disqualifying for any security clearance. I've sent my members for mandatory SISIP counseling for a lot less.

I guarantee you, our allies won't be selling us their high tech kit, if we're tolerating homeless Corporals working on it.

 

[QV]

It is abysmally dumb to look at military supplies an ocean away by states even less aligned with our interests than the US.

Canada should set aside it's emotional outburst, swallow it's inflated ego, and get fully in bed with the US militarily. It is the only option that makes sense from a North American defence and economic standpoint.

 

[ytz]

One side consideration of going too heavy on the allowance side is it may not be considered pensionable earnings. More money now but perhaps no more money down the road.

This is a feature. Not a bug. A number of NATO militaries have reduced, eliminated or severely restricted pensions. The idea being to front load earnings to make enlistment more attractive.

I think if we surveyed members the result would largely favour more dollars now. Not a pension boost.

 

[Remius]

It's irrelevant to all readers because it wasn't explained in any depth. I'd like to know specifically why their experience is applicable to us.

would like for me to explain what peer military and country means? The face similar challenges and issues and have a relative quality of life to ours,

The housing problem in the CAF is similar to society. But worse. Notably, the problem starts long before they buy. To get to the point where they have a mortgage, they need rent low enough to save for a downpayment. Also, O% mortgage doesn't fix childcare, finding a family doctor, etc.

0% mortgages does allow member to be more mobile and take less of a hit if forced to relocate. Also easier to qualify for. Childcare and family doctor is another issue. And yeah, it won’t cure cancer, stop crime and childhood obesity either so not sure what your point is.

CFHA has been recapitalizing the housing stock they have. The cuts era is over. Although it sucks, that the politicians let it get this bad.

And?

While you might think it's just fine to tolerate this, it's literally a security threat that is disqualifying for any security clearance. I've sent my members for mandatory SISIP counseling for a lot less.

Where the eff did I say it’s fine to tolerate that. Good for you. More of that. Send more people to get some financial counselling.

I guarantee you, our allies won't be selling us their high tech kit, if we're tolerating homeless Corporals working on it.

they’ll sell it no problem. It’s up to us to manage our pers properly. The point yiu are missing that I have been saying.

Again, 72K and you live on a couch? That is a financial literacy issue.

 

[Remius]

It is abysmally dumb to look at military supplies an ocean away by states even less aligned with our interests than the US.

If that is where we will operate it makes perfect sense.

Canada should set aside it's emotional outburst, swallow it's inflated ego, and get fully in bed with the US militarily. It is the only option that makes sense from a North American defence and economic standpoint.

No thanks. They are unreliable. We need to take care of ourselves and be independant from them. It’s what they want anyways so win win.

 

[MilEME09]

It is abysmally dumb to look at military supplies an ocean away by states even less aligned with our interests than the US.

Canada should set aside it's emotional outburst, swallow it's inflated ego, and get fully in bed with the US militarily. It is the only option that makes sense from a North American defence and economic standpoint.

and surrender our sovereignty? that would be the first step towards trump trying to Annex us, saying europe is less aligned with our interests when the US unleashed a trade war on us is laughable. We have plenty of space, and labour we could set up a strong defense industrial base here.

 

[Halifax Tar]

and surrender our sovereignty? that would be the first step towards trump trying to Annex us, saying europe is less aligned with our interests when the US unleashed a trade war on us is laughable. We have plenty of space, and labour we could set up a strong defense industrial base here.

Up until Trump I was probably the biggest buy American mil hardware guy on this forum.

Now I think we need weigh our options. And where possible avoid buying American kit.

Now, it looks to me like our best 2nd and 3rd choices are Nordic nations and South Korea.