Reconstitution

[Ludoc]

My Issue with unit PT from experience is a lot of people take the east button and do a run, especially if they like cardio. PT over the week needs to be balanced and full body. If you do a run 3-5 times a week, we are failing our troops, Usually if I run PT on a 3x schedule, monday is a run, wednesday is a circuit, and friday is a sport, depending on facilities and time of year I've done everything from soccer to water polo. Keeping a variety helps use muscles potentially missed from the other two days.

Having a set schedule like that, and stickng to it, helps a lot. Pers can plan their own PT around unit PT (if Mondays are run days, maybe I won't make Sunday leg day).

It also helps the people plannng the PT. Telling one of my Cpls that they are leadng next Wednesday's circuit and they should plan something that fits in the with what we usually do gets better results than asking them at 1550 on Tuesday what they are planning for PT tomorrow. Then, you are spot on, the answer is invariably "Ummm? A run?".

Group PT is good for a lot of reasons. Not just the PT portion. But we need to set our troops up to succeed with it. A schedule helps that immensely.

 

[Quirky]

So, just to be clear, none of those 'bad leaders' were hockey players, right?

Golfers

If you feel like you aren't being correctly recognized come PAR season you have avenues to address that. What you cant do is try to correct other peoples PARs.

I think you will find high flyers and good leaders were solid experienced tradespeople, in general. There are always anecdotal exceptions. I can tell you from MS/MCpl and up for everyone of those promotions you will have detractors who don't think you deserve it. Fuck. Them. You do you.

I will tell you, just showing up and doing your job isn't enough to get you promoted. That gets you in the E zone. If you want to push over into the right side of the bell curve I would encourage you to take up SLT and post secondary education.

The problem is not being recognized, the problem is how people are being recognized and how the system is setup to promote your box tickers.

I don't care who gets promoted, typically those people were promoted/posted and became someone elses problem.

This is the problem, learning French (not a second language because Spanish, etc doesn't give you anything) for example doesn't help a tech on the floor become a better leader. It's another box ticking exercise which serves no real purpose. Besides, if you're a tech on the floor who is semi-useful, you'll never get the time to learn it on work hours, dido for post secondary.

 

[KevinB]

I used to do PT x3 a day.
AM circuit training
Noon Swim at the base pool, and
PM would be a run either with a light ruck or a longer run

Want to use PT to develop junior personnel, have them design a PT plan for a quarter, including not just exercises but nutritional plans and metrics to record improvements. Having a Cpl leading PT for a day isn’t going to do Jack or shit for them learning leadership. It’s just another lesson, like teaching left and right turn at the halt. Putting together an actual fitness plan forces the individual to learn things about the topic, incorporating that learning into a plan that has measured effects. Thus requiring them to ensure that it is monitored and motivation given to those who aren’t progressing.

 

[childs56]

I used to do PT x3 a day.
AM circuit training
Noon Swim at the base pool, and
PM would be a run either with a light ruck or a longer run

Want to use PT to develop junior personnel, have them design a PT plan for a quarter, including not just exercises but nutritional plans and metrics to record improvements. Having a Cpl leading PT for a day isn’t going to do Jack or shit for them learning leadership. It’s just another lesson, like teaching left and right turn at the halt. Putting together an actual fitness plan forces the individual to learn things about the topic, incorporating that learning into a plan that has measured effects. Thus requiring them to ensure that it is monitored and motivation given to those who aren’t progressing.

I know when I was wrenching on Aircraft I rarely had time during my work day to head out for PT, or really anything else but 20 mins for a lunch break even that could be broken if Jets were launching and developed snags before launch. When a plane was broken you fixed it asap especially if the pilot was waiting in que. Some of these issues could be fixed if we had more Techs to fix things. But the reality was we didn't, and they still don't. Either snags get fixed or the jet goes to the healing fence. The healing fence was empty. Unit PT was non existent, individual PT was on your own time.
When I was in the Army working summers and or at the Regiment Daily routines were much different as they were not operational. Time for Troop PT was allocated every day, if nothing else was being done one could dip out for trip trip to the gym or run/ ruck.

 

[markppcli]

Have the fitness standards been continually massaged over the years to account for DEI initiatives?

Is age range “dei” now

 

[daftandbarmy]

I used to do PT x3 a day.
AM circuit training
Noon Swim at the base pool, and
PM would be a run either with a light ruck or a longer run

Want to use PT to develop junior personnel, have them design a PT plan for a quarter, including not just exercises but nutritional plans and metrics to record improvements. Having a Cpl leading PT for a day isn’t going to do Jack or shit for them learning leadership. It’s just another lesson, like teaching left and right turn at the halt. Putting together an actual fitness plan forces the individual to learn things about the topic, incorporating that learning into a plan that has measured effects. Thus requiring them to ensure that it is monitored and motivation given to those who aren’t progressing.

Once upon a time I was 'trapped' in a 3 day conference, full of military members (mostly about my middle-age).

After hours of sitting and watching PPT presentations my inner paratrooper was rebelling so, at one of the breaks, I and one of the SNCOs I knew in the crowd escaped to run a set of stairs while the rest smoked and drank coffee. It was a short set of stairs so we could get about three laps in before the 'endurance sitting' competition continued.

We did the same at every 'coffee break' throughout the conference.

No one else joined us and we attracted some bemused 'eyebrow raising', which is about as Canadian as you can get for scorn.

This helped confirm for me that the 'Fatness Culture' in the CAF, particularly at the senior rank levels, is strong.

 

[stoker dave]

Once upon a time I was 'trapped' in a 3 day conference

Once upon a time I was 'trapped' while posted to a ship for many years.

• The 'gym' was two really cheap exercise bicycles and a universal weight machine bolted to the deck in a tiny and poorly ventilated compartment.
• Individuals who exercised while at sea (doing whatever was possible in the little deck space available) were generally met with derision and mocking (Why ya runnin'? Someone chasin ya? was the commonly repeated phrase.) Out of a crew of about 250, there might have been 3 - 5 individuals who thought regular exercise important (usually jr officers and jr NCMs).
• Alongside, a special 'chit' was required to leave the ship in running gear (i.e. to go for a run at lunch or at 1600). Getting that 'chit' was a bureaucratic nightmare.

I understand things have improved significantly. Congratulations to those who work to acknowledge the importance (to both physical and mental health) of regular exercise.

 

[Underway]

Once upon a time I was 'trapped' in a 3 day conference, full of military members (mostly about my middle-age).

After hours of sitting and watching PPT presentations my inner paratrooper was rebelling so, at one of the breaks, I and one of the SNCOs I knew in the crowd escaped to run a set of stairs while the rest smoked and drank coffee. It was a short set of stairs so we could get about three laps in before the 'endurance sitting' competition continued.

We did the same at every 'coffee break' throughout the conference.

No one else joined us and we attracted some bemused 'eyebrow raising', which is about as Canadian as you can get for scorn.

This helped confirm for me that the 'Fatness Culture' in the CAF, particularly at the senior rank levels, is strong.

I'm impressed you ran the stairs in your oxfords.

Or did I just assume you were in proper office dress for a conference. (3's of somekind, yah I'm a naval officer and I'm old).

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm impressed you ran the stairs in your oxfords.

Or did I just assume you were in proper office dress for a conference. (3's of somekind, yah I'm a naval officer and I'm old).

CADPAT... We toons never wore '3s'.

And after the first lap the run usually turned into a slow slog

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I'm impressed you ran the stairs in your oxfords.

Or did I just assume you were in proper office dress for a conference. (3's of somekind, yah I'm a naval officer and I'm old).

I am old enough to remember dress of the day for officers onboard ship was S3s…

 

[Navy_Pete]

I used to do PT x3 a day.
AM circuit training
Noon Swim at the base pool, and
PM would be a run either with a light ruck or a longer run

Want to use PT to develop junior personnel, have them design a PT plan for a quarter, including not just exercises but nutritional plans and metrics to record improvements. Having a Cpl leading PT for a day isn’t going to do Jack or shit for them learning leadership. It’s just another lesson, like teaching left and right turn at the halt. Putting together an actual fitness plan forces the individual to learn things about the topic, incorporating that learning into a plan that has measured effects. Thus requiring them to ensure that it is monitored and motivation given to those who aren’t progressing.

I think this speaks to the massive differences between the elements; Navy, Air force, and armoured/vehicle units need to spend their time not deployed keeping the major weapon systems working, and all the training to keep them running, which scales up in time needed based on size/complexity/impact of getting things wrong. If a vehicle breaks down, you can get out and walk. That doesn't work for ships, planes or helos, and the impact of things stopping working in transit gets significantly worse (ships will still float, planes can glide, but helos are bricks in the sky fighting gravity).

Infantry units are the weapon system, so PT, nutrition etc is all PM/CM for the weapon system, and really doesn't rely on any external so it makes sense to have something like that as the expectation.

Individual performances would improve if people were in better shape, but planes or ships with good techs can still do the mission even if they fail their force test, so when push comes to shove, the individuals get sacrificed for operations. Shortly after reconstitution RCN ops tempo went up, while staff numbers in critical trades keep falling and we are bringing on more ships that impact those same critical trades.

Because chronic understaffing and lack of resources on the 2nd/3rd line to compensate is a thing, and newer ships are going skeleton crews, if you want sailors to do infantry levels of PT you need to massively increase support when alongside so that they can fit that into their schedules. There are some departments that can, but those are generally operators so no one watching the bridge or ops room (until we get Aegis) while the ships are alongside getting things fixed. Bin rats similarly are busy at sea or alongside, and with all the parts shortages and offloading to the ships with local purchases on top of critical personnel shortages they don't get much downtime either.

At sea, a lot more people are exercising, with a lot of individual and group PT, and gyms and exercise equipment being part of the standard fit which is awesome, but it's honestly a lot harder to get any kind of routine alongside for a lot of departments, and also the same time as when you have limited windows to do things with family and friends before you sail again, so for a lot of people just makes sense to prioritise that over PT if you have to choose during limited periods in home port.

Very different as well for people in shore offices with the ship in the dock; still a lot of work needed to support that kind of thing, but a lot more structured and planned, so you can get into a good PT routine no problem. Unfortunately due to lack of techs, the RCN is looking at going to completely unmanned refits so a lot of those support to QAR jobs will go away and instead of a break, where they learn a lot supporting 3rd line and have time to do career coursing etc, people will get posted back to the meat grinder.

 

[FJAG]

Interestingly that variety even exists within single army units. Take a CS artillery regiment. Forward observation parties need to absolutely have the same fitness standards as the infantry while folks further back, and especially in the gun groups are much better served by upper body strength development.

A common, across the board occupational fitness regime is a chimera.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Interestingly that variety even exists within single army units. Take a CS artillery regiment. Forward observation parties need to absolutely have the same fitness standards as the infantry while folks further back, and especially in the gun groups are much better served by upper body strength development.

A common, across the board occupational fitness regime is a chimera.

Back in the 1980s, along with some of the research that defined EXPRES, one of the things that was trialed (experimented with?, considered?, fucked about with?) was a method (equipment) to test a base level of upper body strength at recruiting centres that would be aligned to specific trades. They also came up with a table listing the MOCs according to lifting strength requirement. Naturally, Gunner was top of the list. The next two occupations were Med A and Nursing Officer. It didn't last long.

 

[OldSolduer]

Interestingly that variety even exists within single army units. Take a CS artillery regiment. Forward observation parties need to absolutely have the same fitness standards as the infantry while folks further back, and especially in the gun groups are much better served by upper body strength development.

A common, across the board occupational fitness regime is a chimera.

Agreed - now that I am retired ish I always thought arbitrary standards were in opposition of CAF standards. We had Coy Comds who would decide what standards were - and attempted to have soldiers put on C & P etc.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Interestingly that variety even exists within single army units. Take a CS artillery regiment. Forward observation parties need to absolutely have the same fitness standards as the infantry while folks further back, and especially in the gun groups are much better served by upper body strength development.

A common, across the board occupational fitness regime is a chimera.

In 5 AB Bde we had to keep up with the Gunners alot of the time. They used 7 RHA as a dumping ground for all their Army level sportsmen.

I recall a FOO of mine, a nationally ranked Rugby player, patiently waiting for me as I struggled up yet another hill in his wake ... and he was carrying a PRC 351 set

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am old enough to remember dress of the day for officers onboard ship was S3s…

As it should still be

 

[KevinB]

I think this speaks to the massive differences between the elements; Navy, Air force, and armoured/vehicle units need to spend their time not deployed keeping the major weapon systems working, and all the training to keep them running, which scales up in time needed based on size/complexity/impact of getting things wrong. If a vehicle breaks down, you can get out and walk. That doesn't work for ships, planes or helos, and the impact of things stopping working in transit gets significantly worse (ships will still float, planes can glide, but helos are bricks in the sky fighting gravity).

Yes and no, outside of specific training aspects, the majority of the time when I did that schedule was at least for the noon swims, on my lunch break, and after hours for the PM sessions. I generally joined every think I could (except Hockey - and I was a hockey player before I joined the Army) to get out of group PT.

I don’t accept that anyone can’t afford to take 1hr in the am for PT in an office or garrison setting. The CAF needs to account for that in its personnel decisions.

If your arriving at 0700 - set 1hr for PT, and have 0800 the start of the office day on times when the schedule is tight, or 0900 on days that it isn’t as bad. You can get a pretty decent workout in 30-45 for most people, and 15 min to shower and get into uniform.

Infantry units are the weapon system, so PT, nutrition etc is all PM/CM for the weapon system, and really doesn't rely on any external so it makes sense to have something like that as the expectation.

Individual performances would improve if people were in better shape, but planes or ships with good techs can still do the mission even if they fail their force test, so when push comes to shove, the individuals get sacrificed for operations. Shortly after reconstitution RCN ops tempo went up, while staff numbers in critical trades keep falling and we are bringing on more ships that impact those same critical trades.

That is a major senior leadership issue. Physical fitness is a major issue for the long term health of individuals. You can’t jam 15lbs of shit into a 5lb bag, and that seems to be what many units or elements do to their people. As members of the CAF there should be clear lines (outside a shooting war) of what the accepted work day is, and PT and a reasonable amount of pers admin should be factored into that.

Because chronic understaffing and lack of resources on the 2nd/3rd line to compensate is a thing, and newer ships are going skeleton crews, if you want sailors to do infantry levels of PT you need to massively increase support when alongside so that they can fit that into their schedules.

No unit is running 3xPT periods a day (outside of some courses), some may run 2, but that’s a rare occurrence. 1-2hrs of PT isn’t infantry training, that’s just maintenance PT for everyone’s health and wellbeing.

There are some departments that can, but those are generally operators so no one watching the bridge or ops room (until we get Aegis) while the ships are alongside getting things fixed. Bin rats similarly are busy at sea or alongside, and with all the parts shortages and offloading to the ships with local purchases on top of critical personnel shortages they don't get much downtime either.

I see that as a leadership failure. It appears a lot of trades are trying to get blood from a stone.

At sea, a lot more people are exercising, with a lot of individual and group PT, and gyms and exercise equipment being part of the standard fit which is awesome, but it's honestly a lot harder to get any kind of routine alongside for a lot of departments, and also the same time as when you have limited windows to do things with family and friends before you sail again, so for a lot of people just makes sense to prioritise that over PT if you have to choose during limited periods in home port.

Very different as well for people in shore offices with the ship in the dock; still a lot of work needed to support that kind of thing, but a lot more structured and planned, so you can get into a good PT routine no problem. Unfortunately due to lack of techs, the RCN is looking at going to completely unmanned refits so a lot of those support to QAR jobs will go away and instead of a break, where they learn a lot supporting 3rd line and have time to do career coursing etc, people will get posted back to the meat grinder.

Again all I see a senior leadership fail. As there hasn’t been a proper accounting for the actual work hours to get tasks done.

Operational requirements come first is so often used as a cover for bad leadership. Sometimes there are legitimate reasons- sitting by a plane at 5 min NTM, is obviously a legit reason not to do PT, but during that time at least from the GIB perspective you are either trying to sleep, or ensuring all your kit is GTG.

But when the operational requirements seem to occur day in and day out, sometime is very very wrong.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That is a major senior leadership issue. Physical fitness is a major issue for the long term health of individuals. You can’t jam 15lbs of shit into a 5lb bag, and that seems to be what many units or elements do to their people. As members of the CAF there should be clear lines (outside a shooting war) of what the accepted work day is, and PT and a reasonable amount of pers admin should be factored into that.

I was always amazed at the number of senior leaders who did not participate in, or lead, PT.

The CO waving at the troops from the side of the road, as you jog by with your company on the BFT, is not a great look...

 

[KevinB]

I was always amazed at the number of senior leaders who did not participate in, or lead, PT.

The CO waving at the troops from the side of the road, as you jog by with your company on the BFT, is not a great look...

I never had a RegF CO that didn’t do PT, 7 Patrica CO’s and 2 at 2Horse.
I did have one utterly lazy and useless Patricia CO, but he did go out for PT.

I had 4 PRes CO’s and never saw them do PT once. Two I think were half in the grave during their tenure as CO.

 

[PrairieFella]

Golfers



The problem is not being recognized, the problem is how people are being recognized and how the system is setup to promote your box tickers.

I don't care who gets promoted, typically those people were promoted/posted and became someone elses problem.

This is the problem, learning French (not a second language because Spanish, etc doesn't give you anything) for example doesn't help a tech on the floor become a better leader. It's another box ticking exercise which serves no real purpose. Besides, if you're a tech on the floor who is semi-useful, you'll never get the time to learn it on work hours, dido for post secondary.

Learning French is useful to techs as leaders so they can communicate with 20% of their fellow countrymen. Communicating with our Quebecois brethren is just as important as an other criteria for promotion, especially at the higher ranks.