All Things AB Separatism (split fm Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???)

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting.
I'd say that the extremists are the ones that don't accept a democratic vote and push forward tin foil ideas that the a democratic vote was 'fixed' or 'rigged' because their opinion wasn't chosen.

Assuming you're talking about Canada and not bleeding Trump into this thread.

No doubt there are people who think the election was rigged. I bet you find people who believe that about every election. I don't see much churn in that.

Having said that Alberta should have every right to hold a vote to succession just like any other province.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Assuming you're talking about Canada and not bleeding Trump into this thread.

No doubt there are people who think the election was rigged. I bet you find people who believe that about every election. I don't see much churn in that.

Having said that Alberta should have every right to hold a vote to succession just like any other province.

Canada - 100% Canada

 

[QV]

Interesting.
I'd say that the extremists are the ones that don't accept a democratic vote and push forward tin foil ideas that the a democratic vote was 'fixed' or 'rigged' because their opinion wasn't chosen.

I won't argue with you on that to an extent. The elections need to be 100% auditable. If they are and it is demonstrated, then that puts to rest all the "rigging" suspicions except for the extremists. If they are not or won't be... then we have a problem.

 

[QV]

Curious on this point. In Canada the federal government and provinces are able to block access to sea ports for Alberta O&G exports.

Does that happen in the US? Does the US government or other states block access to sea ports of landlocked states to export product?

 

[KevinB]

The extremists are the ones who want to shut down a democratic vote.

I think when less than 20% of a province is interested in separating, one has to wonder why even bring it to a vote.

I was an Albertan for years, and I think Alberta gets screwed by the Federal Government repeatedly - but there isn't a groundswell of support to leave Canada - I think that having a vote is just a waste of Albertan taxpayers money (they do cost money), and will cause more damage to the province internally and externally than solve.

I would hope that before deciding to even have a vote, that a petition to agree to a vote, with a significant percentage of the population of Alberta agreeing with a vote, to at lest justify the time and effort of having a vote.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think when less than 20% of a province is interested in separating, one has to wonder why even bring it to a vote.

I was an Albertan for years, and I think Alberta gets screwed by the Federal Government repeatedly - but there isn't a groundswell of support to leave Canada - I think that having a vote is just a waste of Albertan taxpayers money (they do cost money), and will cause more damage to the province internally and externally than solve.

I would hope that before deciding to even have a vote, that a petition to agree to a vote, with a significant percentage of the population of Alberta agreeing with a vote, to at lest justify the time and effort of having a vote.

There is a process to get to a referendum. And a high threshold to winning one.

If you'd like read it:
Referendum Act - Open Government

The Clarity Act:

An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession Reference

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think when less than 20% of a province is interested in separating, one has to wonder why even bring it to a vote.

I was an Albertan for years, and I think Alberta gets screwed by the Federal Government repeatedly - but there isn't a groundswell of support to leave Canada - I think that having a vote is just a waste of Albertan taxpayers money (they do cost money), and will cause more damage to the province internally and externally than solve.

I would hope that before deciding to even have a vote, that a petition to agree to a vote, with a significant percentage of the population of Alberta agreeing with a vote, to at lest justify the time and effort of having a vote.

What msg, having this vote, does this send to our enemies across the world? What msg does it send to Foreign investors around the world? In both cases, resoundingly negative msgs.

 

[QV]

I think when less than 20% of a province is interested in separating, one has to wonder why even bring it to a vote.

I was an Albertan for years, and I think Alberta gets screwed by the Federal Government repeatedly - but there isn't a groundswell of support to leave Canada - I think that having a vote is just a waste of Albertan taxpayers money (they do cost money), and will cause more damage to the province internally and externally than solve.

I would hope that before deciding to even have a vote, that a petition to agree to a vote, with a significant percentage of the population of Alberta agreeing with a vote, to at lest justify the time and effort of having a vote.

I suspect things have changed since you last lived here. The Trudeau years did remarkable damage. I'm reading there is now upwards of 40% support for independence (much less for 51st state status). Anecdotally that number might be close.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Curious on this point. In Canada the federal government and provinces are able to block access to sea ports for Alberta O&G exports.

Does that happen in the US? Does the US government or other states block access to sea ports of landlocked states to export product?

Are you asking this question because you'd like to better understand the legal abilities of what the Federal/Provincial governments 'can' and 'can't do' under Canadian law vs what the US Federal/State governments 'can' and 'can't do' under American law?

 

[QV]

What msg, having this vote, does this send to our enemies across the world? What msg does it send to Foreign investors around the world? In both cases, resoundingly negative msgs.

Investors?? Are you aware of how much capital flight there has been since Notley and Trudeau?

Enemies?? I think enemies are quite content with Canada's status quo as laggards on defence and muting our energy output (which powers every economy) and thus reduces spending ability.

 

[QV]

Are you asking this question because you'd like to better understand the legal abilities of what the Federal/Provincial governments 'can' and 'can't do' under Canadian law vs what the US Federal/State governments 'can' and 'can't do' under American law?

I'm curious if, outside embargos or sanctions for foreign policy or national security reasons, does the US prevent landlocked states from getting their product to foreign markets like Canada does with Alberta?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Investors?? Are you aware of how much capital flight there has been since Notley and Trudeau?

Enemies?? I think enemies are quite content with Canada's status quo as laggards on defence and muting our energy output (which powers every economy) and thus reduces spending ability.

I'm well aware of what capital has been 'lost' under Trudeau and Notley. Having an individual with a global understanding of how the world economy works and the free movement of capital should reduce/remove this going forward. He's been saying all the right things so far, obviously he needs to walk the walk going forward.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It’s also from those that just don’t like the result. They claim to live democracy until it does not go their way. This conversation would not be happening if their man won.

Platitudes about “democracy” falls a bit flat in that context.

But succession is part of our democracy. Yes we do actually have the mechanism for a province to take their ball and leave because they didn't win.

I think it could have, just not immediately. It would have taken PP to not live up to any of his campaign promises.

My question is what does it's say about the fragility of our country that we continue to have serious regional secessionist movements; And to have a secessionist referendum every 15 to 30 years ?

 

[AmmoTech90]

The extremists are the ones who want to shut down a democratic vote.

If they were able to 50.1% then they can have 50.1% of the land Alberta owns. No crown land, no Suffield, etc

 

[Halifax Tar]

If they were able to 50.1% then they can have 50.1% of the land Alberta owns. No crown land, no Suffield, etc

I think it's actually higher that 50.1%. the Clarity Act states they need a clear majority. But in true Canadian fashion fails to define what a clear majority is.

An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession Reference

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

Factors for House of Commons to take into account

(2) In considering whether there has been a clear expression of a will by a clear majority of the population of a province that the province cease to be part of Canada, the House of Commons shall take into account

(a) the size of the majority of valid votes cast in favour of the secessionist option;

(b) the percentage of eligible voters voting in the referendum; and

(c) any other matters or circumstances it considers to be relevant

 

[PrairieFella]

But succession is part of our democracy. Yes we do actually have the mechanism for a province to take their ball and leave because they didn't win.

I think it could have, just not immediately. It would have taken PP to not live up to any of his campaign promises.

My question is what does it's say about the fragility of our country that we continue to have serious regional secessionist movements; And to have a secessionist referendum every 15 to 30 years ?

It's not clear if Alberta even has the ability to secede. Alberta was formed from the Northwest Territories unilaterally as a division of Canada, it is not an original Province of the Empire that negotiated the BNA, nor is it a true Nation as Quebec is. Add in the fact that 100% of the Province is Treaty land and that the Indigneous leadership are saying "go fuck yourselves" to separatists, it's certainly not clear or simple. Nevermind stupid and economically unviable.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Two things , Smith is dealing with a scandal that's beginning to look as if it has real legs.
And two she's trying to run a political party that's riven by factionalism.
Think Herding cats . ( The Extreme Edition)
She's been doing this for a while. She goes a before a group and implies a great deal without if you listen carefully stating her actual position.
As for sticking a knife in Mark Carney's back , that good old fashioned politics.
Unfortunately we've had a paradigm shift recently , this is now about national survival .
I'm not too sure if all our political leadership realises that.
Furthermore I expect her to also stick a knife in Pierre Poilieve's back as well at some point during the by-election.
I honestly think she can't help it. For further reference see The Scorpion and the Frog.

 

[PrairieFella]

Two things , Smith is dealing with a scandal that's beginning to look as if it has real legs.
And two she's trying to run a political party that's riven by factionalism.
Think Herding cats . ( The Extreme Edition)
She's been doing this for a while. She goes a before a group and implies a great deal without if you listen carefully stating her actual position.
As for sticking a knife in Mark Carney's back , that good old fashioned politics.
Unfortunately we've had a paradigm shift recently , this is now about national survival .
I'm not too sure if all our political leadership realises that.
Furthermore I expect her to also stick a knife in Pierre Poilieve's back as well at some point during the by-election.
I honestly think she can't help it. For further reference see The Scorpion and the Frog.

If the Prog Cons are truly patriots as they claim to be, they'd leave the UCP. Nevermind the seccesionist claptrap, the scandals are pretty gnarly.

Inb4 Trudeau's scandals being brought up: I think Trudeau should have resigned years ago from the scandals, just as I think Smith should resign from the scandals.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I would hope that before deciding to even have a vote, that a petition to agree to a vote, with a significant percentage of the population of Alberta agreeing with a vote, to at lest justify the time and effort of having a vote.

And that is the crux of the matter with Premier Smith making it easier (possible?) for the fringe to get enough support to trigger a referendum. There is already a mechanism in Alberta for the population (eligible voters) to bring policy, legislative or constitutional proposal to a provincial referendum. It is the Citizen Initiative Act. Under this current law, to bring a constitutional proposal (and separation is a constitutional question) would require signatures from 20% of provincial electors on the post-election day list of electors, with the 20% threshold reached in at least 2/3 of electoral divisions to be successful. To put a number to that - 587,952 with the numbers in each riding as per this Number of Signatures Required for Initiative - Elections Alberta.

Smith's UCP government introduced the day after the federal election a bill that would amend the Citizen Initiative Act (and other laws related to the referendum process) that would significantly reduce the threshold to trigger a referendum. Those changes include:

• Reducing the threshold for constitutional referendum proposals from 20 percent of all registered voters province-wide, including 20 percent of electors in at least two-thirds of the province’s electoral divisions, to 10 percent of voters who cast a ballot in the last general election.
• Extending the signature collection period for initiative petitions from 90 days to 120 days.
• Shortening the chief electoral officer’s review timeline and expanding their ability to refer proposals to court for constitutional review.
• Requiring referendums and initiative votes to be held on or before the next general election, unless that election is less than a year away.

Simply put, that changes the number of signatures required from 587,952 to 176,345.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's not clear if Alberta even has the ability to secede. Alberta was formed from the Northwest Territories unilaterally as a division of Canada, it is not an original Province of the Empire that negotiated the BNA, nor is it a true Nation as Quebec is. Add in the fact that 100% of the Province is Treaty land and that the Indigneous leadership are saying "go fuck yourselves" to separatists, it's certainly not clear or simple. Nevermind stupid and economically unviable.

The Clarity Act doesn't limit which provinces can secede.

I'm also not sure how you argue one province is a nation with in a nation then argue another isn't. Que has a culture just as I'm sure Alberta and Sask do, and I know the Maritimes does. We made the mistake of allowing one. I'm not sure we can deny others.

The Clarity Act also states that all provinces and indigenous peoples have a seat at the negotiations, should a leave vote win a majority enough.

Referendums aren't about sensible economic decisions. If they were Que never would have had one. The offer absolutely zero to themselves or another state, they are a net drain province.

Referendums are about anger at the system and and expression of not feeling represented by your electoral system.