High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[ytz]

Yeah, DB is having 'issues'....

Over a third of Deutsche Bahn long-distance trains late – DW – 01/04/2025

Long-distance trains continued to face severe punctuality issues in 2024, with Deutsche Bahn saying it has drafted an "action plan" to combat delays. Regional trains, however, were much more reliable last year.

www.dw.com

Issues by European standards.... In Spain, their service gets partially refunded for being an hour late and fully refunded for 90 mins late:

• The tickets for all of our commercial trains(AVE (high-speed), Avlo, Alvia, Euromed, Intercity and Long Distance trains) are subject to the following compensations:
  • Delays of 60 minutes or more: 50% reimbursement
  • Delay of over 90 minutes: 100% reimbursement

Here's Deutsche Bahn:

Compensation in the event of late arrival at the destination station​

• If your arrival at the destination station is delayed by 60 minutes or more, you will receive compensation of 25% of the price paid for a single ticket
• If your arrival at the destination station is delayed by 120 minutes or more, you will receive compensation of 50% of the price paid for a single ticket

Your rights as a rail passenger

Here, Deutsche Bahn customers can find all the regulations on passenger rights in rail transport.

int.bahn.de

By comparison, here's VIA where your train has to be 4 hrs late to get a full refund:

- Late train in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor:
- Delay over an hour and under four hours: 50%
- Delay of four hours or more: 100%

• Train replacement with an alternate mode of transportation: 50%
• Re-accommodation onto another train departing at a different time: 50%

Delay compensation - Late train travel credits | VIA Rail

VIA Rail offers travel credits for delays exceeding one hour or trips replaced by alternate transportation. See conditions that apply.

www.viarail.ca

But DB in Germany does have issues (relative to peers in Europe) because they've underinvested (again relative to peers).

 

[mariomike]

Or on the Northlander/Polar Bear Express route connecting Toronto to Timmins, Cochrane and Moosonee.

Looking forward to riding the Northlander out of Union. Hopefully, next year.

We have traveled on the VIA Siemens Venture trainsets on the Corridor. Improvement from the LRC.

Here's what it will be like on Toronto's new direct train to Muskoka

Saw this in today's news,

Here's what it will be like on Toronto's new direct train to Muskoka

After more than a decade without passenger rail service, the long-anticipated Northlander is officially returning to Ontario's rail network next year…

www.blogto.com

 

[YZT580]

Looking forward to riding the Northlander out of Union. Hopefully, next year.

We have traveled on the VIA Siemens Venture trainsets on the Corridor. Improvement from the LRC.

Here's what it will be like on Toronto's new direct train to Muskoka

Saw this in today's news,

Here's what it will be like on Toronto's new direct train to Muskoka

After more than a decade without passenger rail service, the long-anticipated Northlander is officially returning to Ontario's rail network next year…

www.blogto.com

We have been waiting for a return of the Polar Bear Express. Is that included in the Ontario Northland deal from Union or will it require a layover in Cochrane

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looking forward to riding the Northlander out of Union. Hopefully, next year.

CANARMOR has some nice vests.

 

[mariomike]

We have been waiting for a return of the Polar Bear Express. Is that included in the Ontario Northland deal from Union or will it require a layover in Cochrane

Good question. I would like to ride it too.

The Polar Bear Express Passenger Train - Ontario Northland

www.ontarionorthland.ca

 

[FJAG]

Was in Sweden a few weeks ago and riding the rails there.

We have so much to learn.

 

[ytz]

Was in Sweden a few weeks ago and riding the rails there.

We have so much to learn.

Indeed. But any time these topics are discussed, we'll inevitably get someone arguing about how Canada isn't Europe, ignoring the fact that half our population lives along a 1200 km linear corridor with near European regional population density.

 

[lenaitch]

We have been waiting for a return of the Polar Bear Express. Is that included in the Ontario Northland deal from Union or will it require a layover in Cochrane

The PBX from Cochrane to Moosonee has never stopped. It's a regular service.

 

[YZT580]

The PBX from Cochrane to Moosonee has never stopped. It's a regular service.

I realize that but for us older folks getting to Cochrane became unfeasible when the train stopped originating in Union. I didn't phrase the question properly. Will we be able to board the PBX in Toronto or will it require a layover in Cochrane and a separate train set?

 

[lenaitch]

I realize that but for us older folks getting to Cochrane became unfeasible when the train stopped originating in Union. I didn't phrase the question properly. Will we be able to board the PBX in Toronto or will it require a layover in Cochrane and a separate train set?

It will remain two train sets. The future Northlander will be brand-new, semi-permanently coupled 'Venture' sets by Siemens (very similar to the new Via corridor sets). The PBX is a 'mixed' train using refurbished Go Transit single level cars as well as baggage cars and 'chain' cars for vehicles (I don't thing they include general freight, tanks, etc. anymore - I think they move on a separate train).

Some Northlander things are still up in the air, at least publicly. They have talked about a 'connection' between Timmins and Cochrane using several options. Nothing I have seen firms anything up but the betting money is on a 'reverse move' from Timmins to Cochrane. They have to move the train anyway since Cochrane will be the layover facility so why not make a revenue run instead of a deadhead.

There will be a layover period. Per the business case, the NB Northlander is to arrive at 0510 (which will no doubt be later given the above). The PBX departs Cochrane at 0900. Southbound, the PBX gets in around 2200 (Cochrane) and the Northlander is proposed to depart at 0015. The business case cites the same Northlander arrival/departure times for both Cochrane and Timmins, which obviously can't happen, so we'll have to see. It's pretty hard to coordinate the two trains. The Northlander is obviously longer and subject to CN control south of North Bay. The PBX is a flag service where people can toss on/off snow machines, moose carcasses, etc. along the line.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Long-distance rail travel isn't attractive

Indeed. But any time these topics are discussed, we'll inevitably get someone arguing about how Canada isn't Europe, ignoring the fact that half our population lives along a 1200 km linear corridor with near European regional population density.

"Canada isn't Europe" because we privilege freight over passengers and don't have coastlines conveniently extending well into all parts of the continent such that ships and trucks can move most goods efficiently enough (where there are existing ports). The freight vs passengers paradigm extends into the highly dense strip which does coincide with convenient coastlines (great lakes) and port facilities because the bones of the inadequate-for-dual-use infrastructure were laid down long ago. Long-distance passengers also need access to local transportation, but the infrastructure for that, too, has primarily grown up to serve patterns established by existing road networks and airports.

It would be costly. Something I was recently mulling on: the original 115 km of Coquihalla highway cost somewhat more than $3.5M per km in 1986. It's a four-lane highway which includes some difficult terrain stretches and severe seasonal weather shifts. Adjusted for inflation, that would be almost $9M per km.

The project to widen Hwy 1 from Langley to Abbotsford is estimated to cost $250M per km, despite following an established sufficiently wide right-of-way on what is just some slightly high ground next to the Fraser River delta.

I have no exact notion why costs have exploded so much, but must suppose based on other observations (infrastructure projects) that the phenomenon is widespread. So the question: how much would it cost per km to supply European-style passenger rail service in the "1200 km linear corridor", and how much in total for a reasonable network?

 

[Kirkhill]

Long-distance rail travel isn't attractive

"Canada isn't Europe" because we privilege freight over passengers and don't have coastlines conveniently extending well into all parts of the continent such that ships and trucks can move most goods efficiently enough (where there are existing ports). The freight vs passengers paradigm extends into the highly dense strip which does coincide with convenient coastlines (great lakes) and port facilities because the bones of the inadequate-for-dual-use infrastructure were laid down long ago. Long-distance passengers also need access to local transportation, but the infrastructure for that, too, has primarily grown up to serve patterns established by existing road networks and airports.

It would be costly. Something I was recently mulling on: the original 115 km of Coquihalla highway cost somewhat more than $3.5M per km in 1986. It's a four-lane highway which includes some difficult terrain stretches and severe seasonal weather shifts. Adjusted for inflation, that would be almost $9M per km.

The project to widen Hwy 1 from Langley to Abbotsford is estimated to cost $250M per km, despite following an established sufficiently wide right-of-way on what is just some slightly high ground next to the Fraser River delta.

I have no exact notion why costs have exploded so much, but must suppose based on other observations (infrastructure projects) that the phenomenon is widespread. So the question: how much would it cost per km to supply European-style passenger rail service in the "1200 km linear corridor", and how much in total for a reasonable network?

Is the expansion between Langley and Abbotsford or through Langley and Abbotsford? Because if it is through Langley and Abbotsford I can see how the rates might skyrocket. Especially around that schemozzle at the Abbotsford Airport turn off. Not to mention the Duke of Westminster's industrial park at Aldergrove.

I can see similar issues in the Toronto Montreal corridor. There is a reason Doug Ford is contemplating a tunnel for a circular highway. European levels of development indeed. High Speed Tunnel from Union Station to Peterborough and then surface to Ottawa? When would the track disappear below ground to get into Montreal?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Is the expansion between Langley and Abbotsford or through Langley and Abbotsford? Because if it is through Langley and Abbotsford I can see how the rates might skyrocket. Especially around that schemozzle at the Abbotsford Airport turn off. Not to mention the Duke of Westminster's industrial park at Aldergrove.

Between, which is the same as through - both townships extend from the Canada-US border to the Fraser River. The new lanes are being added to what used to be the median strip. Undoubtedly replacement of overpasses and reworking of exchanges increases costs, but the road itself is not complicated.

There is a reason Doug Ford is contemplating a tunnel for a circular highway. European levels of development indeed. High Speed Tunnel from Union Station to Peterborough and then surface to Ottawa? When would the track disappear below ground to get into Montreal?

Underground and elevated obviously are both more costly than surface. The fundamental problem with all passenger rail in Canada (long distance and commuter) is the insistence that operating costs be subsidized. I don't care about the "but roads!" counter-herrings; rail is absurdly costly relative to the number of passengers served and the limits of use (as in: roads are usable by everyone, and rails are exclusive to very few companies).

The technophiles enamoured of rail should just go one step further and imagine masses of commuter EVs smaller than Smart Cars, self-driving, able to use the entire network of existing roads. As it stands, a few people are already using electronic bicycles for moderate commutes, travelling at speeds up to 60 km/h. I will not be surprised to see roads and vehicles survive after urban rail becomes obsolete.

 

[dapaterson]

Underground and elevated obviously are both more costly than surface. The fundamental problem with all passenger rail in Canada (long distance and commuter) is the insistence that operating costs be subsidized. I don't care about the "but roads!" counter-herrings; rail is absurdly costly relative to the number of passengers served and the limits of use (as in: roads are usable by everyone, and rails are exclusive to very few companies).

We're either pay per use or not. Roads should be pay per use. That means vendors price to cover those costs, and travellers make informed decisions, weighing personal convenience against cost.

Right now, remote / rural users are free riders, expecting the larger taxation system to subsidize their lifestyle choices.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We're either pay per use or not. Roads should be pay per use. That means vendors price to cover those costs, and travellers make informed decisions, weighing personal convenience against cost.

Right now, remote / rural users are free riders, expecting the larger taxation system to subsidize their lifestyle choices.

The economic prospects for rail transit in the Fraser Valley are not great.

Work from home killed alot of transit dreams

 

[mariomike]

High Speed Tunnel from Union Station to Peterborough and then surface to Ottawa?

Rode the Union to PTBO Budd Car many times.

Last time I was in their bus terminal , it was so bad they had to lock up the men's room.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We're either pay per use or not. Roads should be pay per use. That means vendors price to cover those costs, and travellers make informed decisions, weighing personal convenience against cost.

Right now, remote / rural users are free riders, expecting the larger taxation system to subsidize their lifestyle choices.

Yes all the people who live on farms, mine, log or work in the Oilfields should move to the urban centres.

 

[Kirkhill]

Between, which is the same as through - both townships extend from the Canada-US border to the Fraser River. The new lanes are being added to what used to be the median strip. Undoubtedly replacement of overpasses and reworking of exchanges increases costs, but the road itself is not complicated.

Underground and elevated obviously are both more costly than surface. The fundamental problem with all passenger rail in Canada (long distance and commuter) is the insistence that operating costs be subsidized. I don't care about the "but roads!" counter-herrings; rail is absurdly costly relative to the number of passengers served and the limits of use (as in: roads are usable by everyone, and rails are exclusive to very few companies).

The technophiles enamoured of rail should just go one step further and imagine masses of commuter EVs smaller than Smart Cars, self-driving, able to use the entire network of existing roads. As it stands, a few people are already using electronic bicycles for moderate commutes, travelling at speeds up to 60 km/h. I will not be surprised to see roads and vehicles survive after urban rail becomes obsolete.

Toronto's problems with pre-existing development resulted in them having to go high in the 50s. The Gardiner and the aborted Allen (Spadina) Expressways.

The construction plans became a point of growing protests in the late 1960s. The route of the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway had run mostly through industrial areas, parkland, or generally unused areas and had not generated much public concern during early construction. This changed as the Gardiner Expressway approached the downtown area, which resulted in the demolishing of long-established neighbourhoods. The planned expressways would require the same throughout the city and, with the exception of the northern ends of the roads, generally ran through well-settled areas. In particular, the Spadina Expressway ran through the Forest Hill, The Annex, Harbord Village, Kensington Market and Chinatown neighbourhoods, while the Crosstown would present a below-grade barrier on The Annex's northern border. The Crosstown would run beside Rosedale on its eastern end, displacing a forested ravine.

A new resident to The Annex, Jane Jacobs, had been instrumental in blocking the Lower Manhattan Expressway in New York City before moving to Canada in 1969. According to Jacobs, it was the construction of expressways into major American cities that led to an exodus of the middle class, and the death of once-vibrant downtown cores. With David and Nadine Nowlan, they formed the "Stop Spadina And Save Our City" group, which grew to become a major rallying point for anti-expressway feeling in the city. By the late 1960s, the Spadina Expressway had become a "hot" topic politically.

To add to the problems, by 1969 construction of the Spadina Expressway had just reached Eglinton Avenue (although paved only to Lawrence Avenue), less than half its planned route, but had already spent almost all of its $79 million budget. Metro Toronto had to return to the Ontario Municipal Board for additional loans, which were provided in a two-to-one decision. Stop Spadina appealed, and construction was halted pending the outcome. In 1971 Premier John Robarts retired and handed the Premiership to William Davis, who agreed to hear an appeal of the Municipal Board's decision.

It doesn't seem to take long to create "traditions".

100 year old Toronto had the same problems as 2000 year old London.

And as to obsolete transport

My alma mater, the University of Guelph had signs saying keep off the grass and a budget to lay asphalt on the paths created by the students as they cut across the grass....

 

[Kirkhill]

Rode the Union to PTBO Budd Car many times.

Last time I was in their bus terminal , it was so bad they had to lock up the men's room.

Peterboro used to be a thriving middle class city of 50,000 with lots of factory jobs supporting the local economy and, like every other Ontario town of its era, supported its own schools and hospitals - including separate ones for the Catholic community. My father died in Civic and my mother died in St. Joe's. They were both protestants.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes all the people who live on farms, mine, log or work in the Oilfields should move to the urban centres.

Where they will all hire Japanese robots to work their shifts on the rigs while working from home