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Pipelines

  • Thread starter Thread starter QV
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You don't ship refined product (normally) because that's actually about 30 different things (oils, bitumen, diesel, gasoline, natural gas, methane, lubricants, additives etc. etc...). You ship unrefined product and ship from the refinery to local markets. Much more economical.

Energy east as I posted earlier is an uneconomical nightmare due to the cost of pumping that product that far. Its much cheaper to actually put the oil in a tanker and sail it around from the West Coast. You have to let go of the fantasy that Quebec killed energy east. Economics killed it before they province even had a chance to get their punches in. (I don't doubt Quebec would have killed it though).

Energy East being economical is a zombie lie that needs to die. It's not. That's why Churchill is being touted as an alternative. Much much much cheaper shipping.


Not magical or new, just new to you. They were looking at this for the Ring of Fire for a reason.

The railway distance between Toronto and Churchill is almost equal to that between Toronto and Vancouver. A comparatively short distance of railway line extends north from Toronto to within 12 miles of James Bay. The cost of railway transportation per unit of distance is much higher that that of waterway transportation - hence the interest in developing a port on James Bay, which would be within relatively close proximity to the Greater Toronto Area. Trans-Arctic summer sailing is beginning to make it possible for ships to sail between North American East Coast ports and East Asian ports, as well as North American Pacific ports.



Manitoba doesn't own the port. The port is owned by a local indigenous corporation (as is the rail line).

Churchill is already in a period of renewal. Its getting repaired and built out. If the Feds step in it will accelerate the process. Alberta isn't going to fund it, and neither will Manitoba.

One of the more intriguing discussions, a few years back, was making pucks out of bitumen and shipping them by rail like coal.


Those could be shipped out of Rupert or Churchill (or, for that matter Sept-Iles or New Brunswick). Got me to wondering though about the economics of just shipping the oilsands direct from the mine-site with the sand and all. The sand itself may have value as a construction material and/or source of silicon.
 
Wrong.... pipelines ship unrefined, upgraded and refined products all the time.

According to who? .

Tankers are not economical to ship product. But in many cases they are the only way to ship that product

Yet they ship NGL products via trains all the time east.
Eastern refineries killed buying any large volume of Western Canadian oil. Due to the cheap foreign oil being bought, shipped and then sold again. Follow a few of the money trails to see why Western Canadian Oil and NG is not the major supplier for Canadian Eastern Refineries.

Lol your wrong but OK.
Churchill is being looked at for shipping to the European Markets and beyond due to the energy east pipelines being dead in the water from Eastern Canada refusing them to be built. Not because it is a cheaper way to do things.

Disagree about funding the port. Both provincial and federal funds are being used. Never let facts get in the way of a good discussion.

WRT the economics, it depends on what you are shipping, how much and how far.
 
One of the more intriguing discussions, a few years back, was making pucks out of bitumen and shipping them by rail like coal.


Those could be shipped out of Rupert or Churchill (or, for that matter Sept-Iles or New Brunswick). Got me to wondering though about the economics of just shipping the oilsands direct from the mine-site with the sand and all. The sand itself may have value as a construction material and/or source of silicon.
No one bought into the puck idea though i like it, especially since they float in water, making easy cleanup after a derailment and you could reclaim the product
 
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1749147866176.png


So, my next thought (one of those days, sorry) was how did in-situ sites work.

The need to liquefy the bitumen to get it out of the ground.

They inject steam into the ground and recover a pumpable mixture of bitumen and water.

Why not just ship that mixture in pipes or rail cars?
 
View attachment 93696


So, my next thought (one of those days, sorry) was how did in-situ sites work.

The need to liquefy the bitumen to get it out of the ground.

They inject steam into the ground and recover a pumpable mixture of bitumen and water.

Why not just ship that mixture in pipes or rail cars?
No clue if the response is accurate or not but according to ChatGPT the ratio of bitumen to water extracted from In Situ SAGD oilsand sites is between 1:3 and 1:5. So you'd be increasing the volume of product to be transferred by a factor of 3 to 5 (with the purchaser of the product now having to have the cost of separating the water from the bitumen.

The other major factor (again according to ChatGPT so believe what you will) is that up to 90% of the extracted water is recycled and re-used for further steam injections. Ship the water away with the bitumen and you would massively increase the amount of water that would have to be removed from the environment with all the ecological impacts that would go along with that.

Doesn't seem like a viable option to me.
 
No clue if the response is accurate or not but according to ChatGPT the ratio of bitumen to water extracted from In Situ SAGD oilsand sites is between 1:3 and 1:5. So you'd be increasing the volume of product to be transferred by a factor of 3 to 5 (with the purchaser of the product now having to have the cost of separating the water from the bitumen.

The other major factor (again according to ChatGPT so believe what you will) is that up to 90% of the extracted water is recycled and re-used for further steam injections. Ship the water away with the bitumen and you would massively increase the amount of water that would have to be removed from the environment with all the ecological impacts that would go along with that.

Doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

Seen -

I was influenced by the reaction to the movement of dilbit (diluted bitumen). Apparently that caused some consternation. And there was some discussion of the diluent being recovered and recycled back to Alberta for re-use, necessitating a parallel pipe if I understood correctly.

Although I think the dilbit mixture is marketed as well.
 
View attachment 93696


So, my next thought (one of those days, sorry) was how did in-situ sites work.

The need to liquefy the bitumen to get it out of the ground.

They inject steam into the ground and recover a pumpable mixture of bitumen and water.

Why not just ship that mixture in pipes or rail cars?
It would need to kept to temp to keep it flowing. Which is difficult.
They often dilute it with Condensate to help its flow characteristics. The condi is as valuable or more depending.

Or they use steam to heat the rail cars at destination to flow the Bitumen to the tankers and or storage.
No clue if the response is accurate or not but according to ChatGPT the ratio of bitumen to water extracted from In Situ SAGD oilsand sites is between 1:3 and 1:5. So you'd be increasing the volume of product to be transferred by a factor of 3 to 5 (with the purchaser of the product now having to have the cost of separating the water from the bitumen.

The other major factor (again according to ChatGPT so believe what you will) is that up to 90% of the extracted water is recycled and re-used for further steam injections. Ship the water away with the bitumen and you would massively increase the amount of water that would have to be removed from the environment with all the ecological impacts that would go along with that.

Doesn't seem like a viable option to me.
the SAGD plants are pretty neat to go so and be part of. The drilling of the wells is pretty technical with little room for errors. The whole process is so simple yet very complicated.

Seen -

I was influenced by the reaction to the movement of dilbit (diluted bitumen). Apparently that caused some consternation. And there was some discussion of the diluent being recovered and recycled back to Alberta for re-use, necessitating a parallel pipe if I understood correctly.

Although I think the dilbit mixture is marketed as well.
The diluted Bitumen is separated at destination and the various products used in their own requirement.
They ship dilbit every day through the Transmountian pipeline and the Keystone.
 
Wrong.... pipelines ship unrefined, upgraded and refined products all the time.

According to who? .

Tankers are not economical to ship product. But in many cases they are the only way to ship that product

Yet they ship NGL products via trains all the time east.
Eastern refineries killed buying any large volume of Western Canadian oil. Due to the cheap foreign oil being bought, shipped and then sold again. Follow a few of the money trails to see why Western Canadian Oil and NG is not the major supplier for Canadian Eastern Refineries.

Lol your wrong but OK.
Churchill is being looked at for shipping to the European Markets and beyond due to the energy east pipelines being dead in the water from Eastern Canada refusing them to be built. Not because it is a cheaper way to do things.

Disagree about funding the port. Both provincial and federal funds are being used. Never let facts get in the way of a good discussion.


This got me to thinking about the St Lawrence Seaway


1749152631634.png

Rail competes with the Seaway and yet the Seaway moves 10-12 million tonnes of grain annually.
It also moves iron ore and coal. Neither of which are high value products.
Other Dry Bulk includes potash.

Fed Nav seems to be one of the larger laker fleets trading internationally and their lakers seem to be in the 30 to 35,000 tonne range. The same range as their PC4 bulk freighters carrying iron and nickel or from Baffin Island, Ungava and Voisey Bay. Their lakers are 1c ice strengthened.

Those dry cargoes are already being moved out of Churchill occasionally.

....

WRT Oil

The shipping summary euphemistically refers to Liquid Bulk. 3,995,000 tonnes.

Transport Canada said this in 2021

Tanker statistics in the Saint Lawrence Seaway and Great Lakes​

Over 4.1 million tonnes of oil products are moved from 29 marine facilities in and out of ports in the Great Lakes – St. Lawrence Seaway. Of this:

  • over 1.8 million tonnes are shipped between Canada and the United States
  • over 2.3 million tonnes are imported/exported in and out of the Great Lakes – St. Lawrence Seaway system.
Tankers carrying oil products account for 7 percent of all shipments completed in the Great Lakes – St. Lawrence Seaway. Heavy crude oil is not currently transported on the Great Lakes – St. Lawrence Seaway.

4 million tonnes of oil
930 kg/m3
4.3 million m3
6.28 bbl/m3
27 million bbl/season

Or roughly 27 days at the rate envisaged out of Prince Rupert.
 
Eby didn't only say no ships, he also said no new pipelines through his province. Probably a good reason to skip the conference and go sell chips and chocolate to the Japanese.

As was stated above, this is a wish list the Premieres gave to Carney. The feds will decide what they back and approve. So, it is Carney’s plan. If anyone listened to his response at the meeting, the projects need to meet, yet to be defined, federal standards for environmental, First Nations, decarbonization and more. All federal roadblocks that will stop any new private investment.

This government is likely to fall well before the shovels come out anyway, so might as well make the process as onerous as possible.
 
The size of vessel currently calling at Burnaby, and could be calling at Churchill.

118,000 DWT or about 800,000 bbl. --- 1 a day?


1749154535051.png

PC5

This is the same as the AOPS

PC 5Year-round operation in medium first-year ice which may include old ice inclusions70 to 120 cm (2.3 to 3.9 ft)
 
Eby didn't only say no ships, he also said no new pipelines through his province. Probably a good reason to skip the conference and go sell chips and chocolate to the Japanese.
That sounds inaccurate. I saw on TV a statement he made. He dodged the question by noting there were no projects in contemplation at a stage that warranted addressing the issue. That isn't a flat "no".
 
That sounds inaccurate. I saw on TV a statement he made. He dodged the question by noting there were no projects in contemplation at a stage that warranted addressing the issue. That isn't a flat "no".

And I know that gas is not oil but both are about Global-Warming/Fossil-Fuels/Hydrocarbons and BC was pretty adamant about both.

Now...


Both of those projects have First Nations involvement


And even if not all First Nations are on board today well....


And even the oil lines

As I keep noting the Eagle Spirit corridor to Lax Kw'alaams was fine with oil as well as gas
And Eby is pushing the Feds to dredge to Burnaby so that he can get more oil into individual ships


With the usual opposition.


...

I don't think the Tidewater coalition between the Suzukiites and the First Nations will hold.
 
It would need to kept to temp to keep it flowing. Which is difficult.
They often dilute it with Condensate to help its flow characteristics. The condi is as valuable or more depending.

Or they use steam to heat the rail cars at destination to flow the Bitumen to the tankers and or storage.

the SAGD plants are pretty neat to go so and be part of. The drilling of the wells is pretty technical with little room for errors. The whole process is so simple yet very complicated.


The diluted Bitumen is separated at destination and the various products used in their own requirement.
They ship dilbit every day through the Transmountian pipeline and the Keystone.
Methenex in Kitimat was a condensate facility, at one point exporting it, then importing it. Their plant is now the site of LNGCanada.
 
And I know that gas is not oil but both are about Global-Warming/Fossil-Fuels/Hydrocarbons and BC was pretty adamant about both.

Now...


Both of those projects have First Nations involvement


And even if not all First Nations are on board today well....


And even the oil lines

As I keep noting the Eagle Spirit corridor to Lax Kw'alaams was fine with oil as well as gas
And Eby is pushing the Feds to dredge to Burnaby so that he can get more oil into individual ships


With the usual opposition.


...

I don't think the Tidewater coalition between the Suzukiites and the First Nations will hold.
An interesting decision on that EA. This was always a interesting discussion on what constituted "Under construction" as most Acts are silent on a definition of that particular clause. So each case had to be judged individually. Many times I had to tell proponents to go out and dig, send me proof, or their approval would lapse.
People also forget that their consultation for the EA phases. Then if approved, there is further consultation with FN for each regulatory approval. For Site C. I issued 6 approvals for the main works and some 70 approvals for ancillary works and that was just for my Department alone. DFO had some 20 or so and likley another 10 or so Federal approvals/permits. Then some 200 Provincial approval/permits.

Linear project like pipelines could trigger massive amounts of approvals for access roads, cutting permits, bridges, water withdrawals and road use.
 
Just out -

New bill before parliament


Projects of National Interest

To meet the moment, Canada needs to use all the tools at its disposal to get major projects built; projects that will help Canada become the strongest economy in the G7, deepen our trade relationships with reliable partners, and create good Canadian jobs.

At the First Ministers’ Meeting in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, on June 2, First Ministers agreed on the urgency of building major projects that produce and connect clean and conventional energy, goods and services to markets across Canada and the globe. These include projects such as highways, railways, ports, airports, oil pipelines, critical minerals, mines, nuclear facilities, and electricity transmission systems.

This Bill seeks to get projects in the national interest built by focusing on a small number of executable projects and shifting the focus of federal reviews from “whether” to build these projects to “how” to best advance them. The new legislation would streamline multiple decision points for federal approval and minimize uncertainty for proponents.

The goal is to send a clear early signal, to build investor confidence and get projects to investment and construction faster.

Explicitly stating "OIL" pipelines is movement. It legitimizes oil in a way it has not been since 2015.

Along with


I think Smith is right to give Carney the benefit of the doubt.

....

This may play a role in his reasoning


At a closing press conference NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte confirmed that the targets “describe exactly what capabilities Allies need to invest in over the coming years… to keep our deterrence and defence strong and our one billion people safe.”

The targets are the basis for a new defence investment plan which is expected to be approved at the NATO Summit in The Hague. The proposal calls for Allies to invest 5% of GDP in defence, including 3.5% on core defence spending, as well as 1.5% of GDP per year on defence and security-related investment, including in infrastructure and resilience.

He is going to need money.


On specific projects, Ivison asked if a bitumen pipeline should be a priority.

“(Alberta premier) Danielle Smith has said it, and my analysis suggests it’s absolutely true: There is nothing that will change the economic growth, the GDP, the productivity per capita in this country as much as a bitumen pipeline.


We finally added Trans Mountain about a year ago. That’s at 90 per cent utilization right now in one year. Our producers filled it fast, so there’s clearly demand. We’re seeing most of that demand come from Asia, so there is strong demand in global markets for Canadian heavy oil. But it is concerning that we have added this pipeline and we’re already running out of egress. So there is an urgency from the producers that we need to start thinking about the next pipeline. And I don’t think we’re going to get Northern Gateway in two years. If everything went well, probably four years. And that’s why we have to start planning for (the next one) now,” she said.

Exner-Pirot said whichever pipeline plan comes forward will require the B.C. government to revisit its opposition to tanker traffic on the West Coast.

“I’m finding this hard to understand because B.C. has actually done some constructive and progressive things on the economic development side since Trump was inaugurated. (Premier Dave) Eby has almost been the most vocal about wanting the elbows up. He said in February that if we don’t sell Canadian oil and gas, they will just get it from places like Venezuela. I thought: ‘Wow, this guy has had a light bulb moment’. To hear (his support for the tanker ban) two and a half months later is quite disappointing. Now a lot of this is federal jurisdiction, so while we want the feds to get out of the way, (it is different) on inter-provincial pipelines, because that is clearly federal jurisdiction. We know from Trans Mountain when B.C., if you recall, said: ‘We will use every tool in the toolbox to stop this project’. And they did. But it wasn’t their right. The feds can overturn the oil tanker ban. That’s their jurisdiction. But what proponent really wants to step into a situation where a provincial government is going to use every tool in the toolbox to stop your project? It’s obviously not bullish for investment to have this kind of political disagreement on the ground.”

I would point out that the Alaska Highway and most of the Arctic infrastructure was built out from WW2 strategic requirements.

Unprofitable lines to Arctic Coasts, new ports, oil pipelines, urainium and grain supplies, all of them could be seen in the same light and funded from the mandated 1.5% of GDP. That is just a little more than this year's defence budget.

$30,584,803,954 CAD

All of that could be sold to the US as strengthening the defence of North America and to Canadians as a combination of asserting sovereignty and making money. And jobs.
 
An interesting decision on that EA. This was always a interesting discussion on what constituted "Under construction" as most Acts are silent on a definition of that particular clause. So each case had to be judged individually. Many times I had to tell proponents to go out and dig, send me proof, or their approval would lapse.
People also forget that their consultation for the EA phases. Then if approved, there is further consultation with FN for each regulatory approval. For Site C. I issued 6 approvals for the main works and some 70 approvals for ancillary works and that was just for my Department alone. DFO had some 20 or so and likley another 10 or so Federal approvals/permits. Then some 200 Provincial approval/permits.

Linear project like pipelines could trigger massive amounts of approvals for access roads, cutting permits, bridges, water withdrawals and road use.

A new rubber stamp?

"National Interest"?
 
@Colin Parkinson

Further to linear projects. Have you ever driven a prairie highway? You are driving for miles without touching the wheel, trying not to fall asleep then suddenly, in quick succession you have to make a left hand turn and then a right hand turn followed by a right then left. (OK this is the prairies - quick succession can mean within 5 miles of each other). Somebody's farm was bypassed. Politics and/or money.

I see the same situation with pipelines and first nations. If there is too much resistance then bypass and isolate.
 
The size of vessel currently calling at Burnaby, and could be calling at Churchill.

118,000 DWT or about 800,000 bbl. --- 1 a day?


View attachment 93700

PC5

This is the same as the AOPS


PC 5Year-round operation in medium first-year ice which may include old ice inclusions70 to 120 cm (2.3 to 3.9 ft)
Which goes back to my suggestion of using the 2 yet to be built CCGS AOPS and the yet to be transferred 2 (of the 3) East Coast AOPS's to be used for ice breaking purposes in Hudson Bay and Hudson Strait. Leave 1 AOPS on the East Coast in the RCN and the 3 on the West Coast as well. They can do summer 'show the flag runs' into the Arctic and spend the summer off Baja or Jamaica helping the USCG find drugs.
 
@Colin Parkinson

Further to linear projects. Have you ever driven a prairie highway? You are driving for miles without touching the wheel, trying not to fall asleep then suddenly, in quick succession you have to make a left hand turn and then a right hand turn followed by a right then left. (OK this is the prairies - quick succession can mean within 5 miles of each other). Somebody's farm was bypassed. Politics and/or money.

I see the same situation with pipelines and first nations. If there is too much resistance then bypass and isolate.
Sometimes.

Sometimes it is just a correction line…
 
Linier projects are hard.

  1. First find a engineering company with experience in the field and negotiate contract, Terms of Reference (TOR), etc
  2. Design a project using existing information, both public and privately held. Normally this is done on the quiet.
  3. Find a potentiel client for your product and get a notional contract
  4. Submit a project description to the relevant authorities for a decision on the EA process, begin social licence marketing
  5. Begin talks with potentially affected indigenous groups. (Note some proponents actually do 5 first, then 4)
  6. With a TOR from the government, seek exploration permits and land access agreement from the FN to begin detailed route surveys
  7. Submit revised route plans based on geophysical issues, sensitive ecological, important FN sites, archeological sites and issues with other landowners and existing infrastructure.
  8. Governments determine if the revised route still falls under the original scope or a new TOR needs to be issued.
  9. Start the full public EA process, open houses, federal and provincial consultations begin with interested FN's
  10. Determine if anymore route changes are needed and any information gaps are filled.
  11. If no major changes then a positive EA decision may be given.
  12. Firm up contract with client, get Final Investment Decision from company board
  13. Regulatory submissions by the proponent to authorities, then they begin regulatory consultations
  14. Construction begins, normally in multiple locations at once
  15. new issues emerge, (geophysical, archeological typically) require some route alterations.
  16. The new route alterations are assessed to see if they fall under the scope of the existing review, if yes, they are assessed, consulted apone and then a modified EA certificate is issued. Trigger, new regulatory reviews of those sections.

This is a simplified list of the process
 
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