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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
I guess the Navy needs to get some training done!
That seems to be the breadth and depth of the actual plan.

Recruit miraculous number of people, train them in numbers way beyond what our facilities/instructors have capacity for, and also stop the bleed of experienced people who are in no way replaced by untrained recruits (who are leaving at higher than average numbers due to lack of training capacity).

It's like Polyanna is our strategic vision, so the COA of hope and a prayer has been elevated to a full musical.
 
That seems to be the breadth and depth of the actual plan.

Recruit miraculous number of people, train them in numbers way beyond what our facilities/instructors have capacity for, and also stop the bleed of experienced people who are in no way replaced by untrained recruits (who are leaving at higher than average numbers due to lack of training capacity).

It's like Polyanna is our strategic vision, so the COA of hope and a prayer has been elevated to a full musical.
Let see
Peace dividend
Force Reduction Plan
Inability to build training infrastructure
Inability to recruit replacement numbers when we saw we (CAF, not just RCN) we were not replacing attrition
Inability to think outside of the box when it comes to retaining personnel.

This pickle isn't going to go away anyway soon so Hope could be our only hope!
 
Let see
Peace dividend
Force Reduction Plan
Inability to build training infrastructure
Inability to recruit replacement numbers when we saw we (CAF, not just RCN) we were not replacing attrition
Inability to think outside of the box when it comes to retaining personnel.

This pickle isn't going to go away anyway soon so Hope could be our only hope!
I think the DC and Firefighting school in Halifax catching fire on Christmas day a few years ago is a nice counterpoint to optimism of a lot of senior leaders in the RCN, and what seems to be their perception of the state of infra, training system and the fleet generally.
 
Let see
Peace dividend
Force Reduction Plan
Inability to build training infrastructure
Inability to recruit replacement numbers when we saw we (CAF, not just RCN) we were not replacing attrition
Inability to think outside of the box when it comes to retaining personnel.

This pickle isn't going to go away anyway soon so Hope could be our only hope!
I see "peace dividend" and I want to add "2.0." We took our post Cold War dividend on top of the one we took under PET in the middle of the Cold War from which we had yet to fully recover 20 years later when the wall came down.
 
So what ships in the fleet do we park to sail the corvettes when we don't manage to double the number of trained sailors (including generating POs and Chiefs) in the next 10 years?

I think we're about to absolutely gut the C&POs mess. I'm predicting a whole scale massive release surge.

I guess the Navy needs to get some training done!

It's a vicious circle. We need bother students and instructors.
 
I think we're about to absolutely gut the C&POs mess. I'm predicting a whole scale massive release surge.

It's a vicious circle. We need bother students and instructors.
I fear you are right, and it's exactly when we need a lot of senior people to actually run training, develop SOPs and tactics for the new ships, provide leadership and guidance and a lot of other key things. We always do of course, but that's the group you really lean into when you are bringing in new ships.

Seeing it in micro scale with a lot of the legacy HTs now gone or near the end of their careers, and the HT specialization dragging on so long that most of them have or will be moving on to different careers and likely not interested in coming back as instructors, so huge loss of knowledge base there, on something pretty fundamental for a Navy ship actually coming out the other side of serious damage.
 
So what ships in the fleet do we park to sail the corvettes when we don't manage to double the number of trained sailors (including generating POs and Chiefs) in the next 10 years?

How many berths can you eliminate from the River Class and still have a combat capable vessel?

15 Rivers with a Canadian crew of 210 = 3150
Aussie crew of 180 = 2700 (Savings of 450 crew)
Brit crew of 157 = 2355 (Savings of 795 crew)

And how many of the planned crew are actually Navy and not Joint, like the Air Det?

A crew of 45 in the "Corvette" and Aussie crewing of the Rivers would allow for 10 Corvettes and 15 RCDs.
With British crewing you could crew the 15 RCDs and 17 Corvettes, or 12 Corvettes and 5 KSS III (50 crew each)

....


How about 15 RCDs, 8 Corvettes and 8 KSS III on top of the 6 AOPS (8 if the two CCG vessels were assigned to the Reserve)?
 
So what ships in the fleet do we park to sail the corvettes when we don't manage to double the number of trained sailors (including generating POs and Chiefs) in the next 10 years?
Is it really a huge deal to temporarily have more ships than can be crewed concurrently?

Park whatever isn't needed at a given time. The corvettes will likely be able to do most of the peacetime roles that the Halifax-class does currently with less personnel. Only use the Rivers when a Corvette is unable to perform the task. As more trained crew slowly come available over the years you man more of the fleet.

The key is having an RCN leadership that is smart enough to only deploy what crewing allows rather then trying to crew every vessel that is available. Will also require people in uniform telling the people in suits "NO" when necessary.
 
Personally, I see the corvettes not as a problem, but rather as a solution, both to training and retention.

First of all, just like the type 31 in the UK is built at a faster rate than the type 26, the CMC ought to have a construction rate that is much higher than the RCD. There are many reasons for that, from the size difference to differences in engineering sophistication - while they would have quieting measures, for instance, they would not need to be the ultra-quiet vessels that the RCD will be; for another instance, they would likely only have twin diesel engines driving two separate shafts with VP screws, a much simpler engineering plant that is faster to build, etc. etc.

If the GoC moves fast, we could see the first in the water and going through acceptance trial in three years, with a new on coming on line every year after that. We all know that this (3 to4 years from now) is about the time when the worst off HAl's will start to self retire. For every HAl that "retires", you can man two corvettes and still free up 30 to 40 sailors to have (1) more instructors, or (2) more shore posting time, or (3) more time for their own next level training. Any of these possibilities helps make the sea/shore ration better and help with retention.

Moreover, you now have two ships instead of one on which to train junior officers to become watchkeepers, MS and PO2 engineers to become EOOW, and to give an first crack to junior LT's, PO2, PO1 at being heads of department in much less demanding environment. you now also have two platforms for senior LCDR's and junior C2 to become CO or CERA for the first time and see if they fit the bill for later employment in the RCD's or remaining HAL.

Finally, and here I sincerely hope that CRCN would make sure to "sell" these corvettes to the government as vessels meant for the defense of Canadian waters, because then, they could help with retention by going back to the type of sailing schedule we used to have in the 70's /early 80's. In those days (for those who weren't there ;)) on either coast, about 75% of the fleet would sail at some point of the morning on Mondays, only to go to our exercise area - exercise and then - be back alongside around noon on Fridays. Maybe three or four times a year, you would do an extended cruise of two or three weeks for a NATO or US exercise, or once or twice in your career, a 6 month deployment to the NATO Ready Group. So on a sea posting, you were still back home for the week end 40 to 45 times a year. Compare that to the current deployment cycle of HAL's and other fleet units and tell me that it wouldn't help with retention!

As more corvettes would come on line and help with this expansion of trained personnel and retention, the RCD's would start to come on line and be able to be manned with personnel trained up in the corvettes. The expansion of the fleet and of the number of trained personnel would proceed at a reasonable pace because of the availability of these little ships and their restrained use in Canadian waters mostly.
 
Personally, I see the corvettes not as a problem, but rather as a solution, both to training and retention.

First of all, just like the type 31 in the UK is built at a faster rate than the type 26, the CMC ought to have a construction rate that is much higher than the RCD. There are many reasons for that, from the size difference to differences in engineering sophistication - while they would have quieting measures, for instance, they would not need to be the ultra-quiet vessels that the RCD will be; for another instance, they would likely only have twin diesel engines driving two separate shafts with VP screws, a much simpler engineering plant that is faster to build, etc. etc.

If the GoC moves fast, we could see the first in the water and going through acceptance trial in three years, with a new on coming on line every year after that. We all know that this (3 to4 years from now) is about the time when the worst off HAl's will start to self retire. For every HAl that "retires", you can man two corvettes and still free up 30 to 40 sailors to have (1) more instructors, or (2) more shore posting time, or (3) more time for their own next level training. Any of these possibilities helps make the sea/shore ration better and help with retention.

Moreover, you now have two ships instead of one on which to train junior officers to become watchkeepers, MS and PO2 engineers to become EOOW, and to give an first crack to junior LT's, PO2, PO1 at being heads of department in much less demanding environment. you now also have two platforms for senior LCDR's and junior C2 to become CO or CERA for the first time and see if they fit the bill for later employment in the RCD's or remaining HAL.

Finally, and here I sincerely hope that CRCN would make sure to "sell" these corvettes to the government as vessels meant for the defense of Canadian waters, because then, they could help with retention by going back to the type of sailing schedule we used to have in the 70's /early 80's. In those days (for those who weren't there ;)) on either coast, about 75% of the fleet would sail at some point of the morning on Mondays, only to go to our exercise area - exercise and then - be back alongside around noon on Fridays. Maybe three or four times a year, you would do an extended cruise of two or three weeks for a NATO or US exercise, or once or twice in your career, a 6 month deployment to the NATO Ready Group. So on a sea posting, you were still back home for the week end 40 to 45 times a year. Compare that to the current deployment cycle of HAL's and other fleet units and tell me that it wouldn't help with retention!

As more corvettes would come on line and help with this expansion of trained personnel and retention, the RCD's would start to come on line and be able to be manned with personnel trained up in the corvettes. The expansion of the fleet and of the number of trained personnel would proceed at a reasonable pace because of the availability of these little ships and their restrained use in Canadian waters mostly.
I complet agree, apart from the sailing schedule idea. Monday to Friday sailing is far worse than a few weeks away, followed by a few weeks being left alone at home.

If we have more ships, with less crew, then each individual sailor should be able to spend more time at home, even if we continue doing deployments.
 
I fear you are right, and it's exactly when we need a lot of senior people to actually run training, develop SOPs and tactics for the new ships, provide leadership and guidance and a lot of other key things. We always do of course, but that's the group you really lean into when you are bringing in new ships.

Seeing it in micro scale with a lot of the legacy HTs now gone or near the end of their careers, and the HT specialization dragging on so long that most of them have or will be moving on to different careers and likely not interested in coming back as instructors, so huge loss of knowledge base there, on something pretty fundamental for a Navy ship actually coming out the other side of serious damage.

You think the loss the HTs was bad. Just wait.
 
I see "peace dividend" and I want to add "2.0." We took our post Cold War dividend on top of the one we took under PET in the middle of the Cold War from which we had yet to fully recover 20 years later when the wall came down.
Bang on. We’d already spent it from 1970 on.
 
So what ships in the fleet do we park to sail the corvettes when we don't manage to double the number of trained sailors (including generating POs and Chiefs) in the next 10 years?
I just assumed that as a new corvette came online, a Kingston class would be retired and the crew transferred.
 
Brazil is using the ExLS but point taken. However an 8 cell Mk41 VLS uses about tfour times the space an ExLS will with only a third or less more firepower.

You could still have Sea Ceptor but go with the "mushroom farm" launcher configuration the Chile, NZ and UK are using.
Sea Ceptor is also used with the GWS35 mushroom farm on the New Zealand Anzac ships that Lockheed Canada installed CMS330 into.
 
I just assumed that as a new corvette came online, a Kingston class would be retired and the crew transferred.
Out east we have four ships tied up, destored and will never go to sea again. One more about to go through that process and another in Nov. So basicially 3 crews on the east coast. West Coast 2 tied up and the other on its last legs. The 6th west coast boat about to be transferred east and turned over to a east coast crew. In total both coasts a total of four crews. Even with AOPS there will be a gap for a number of years.
 
A tad late, but better than never.

Interesting, it appears Seaspan will be constructing the entire ship in Canada while the hull of Davies version will be constructed overseas and will be brought to Canada for the rest of the build.
 
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