New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[SeaKingTacco]

Sorry, I think I meant to the same reply you had replied to.

The problem with NSS is the way it's set up unless something can't be built in Canada because facilities don't exist, it drags in everything over 1000 tonnes, and if they exclude it from NSS then they also can't direct it to one yard without giving ISI and VSY chances to bid on the RFP either.

Nothing stopping us contractually from splitting a fleet between yards, but will cost a lot more from duplicating work (like production engineering, procurement, QC setup and test and trial plans) and then you get you get normal efficiency losses for first of class build at multiple locations. Which is fine if people are realistic about it and accept that upfront, but the GoC tends to bury their head in the sand and/or ignore the people telling them that kind of thing.

And then you get oddities like the VDQ being longer than the rest of the class, because the welding was done slightly differently during module assembly and cumulatively extended the whole ship

Weird tangental thought- that should mean VDQ is faster than the rest of the Halifax Class?

 

[Stoker]

Its interesting that you pointed to not exporting major components. US is doing all the AEGIS work initially. For the shore based facility. That will be moved (or mirrored) at Athabaskan so that we have a soveriegn capability here to do our own AEGIS work. I suspect there will still be a lot of ties back to New Jersey though.

Sounds reasonable and makes sense given the security requirements for AEGIS.

 

[dapaterson]

And then you get oddities like the VDQ being longer than the rest of the class, because the welding was done slightly differently during module assembly and cumulatively extended the whole ship

Distinct society?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Unlike Davie’s polar icebreaker which is a one off civilian vessel the RCD is a complex, front line combatant with high integration demands, and significant classified systems. Outsourcing major components of that build overseas, as Davie has done for its hull modules, simply isn’t a viable or responsible option for a RCN warship.

If you're suggesting Irving follow that same path, you're not accelerating construction, you’re gutting Canadian defence capability, exporting high value jobs, and bypassing the whole purpose of the NSS.

The only viable way to speed up RCD construction is to expand domestic capacity. That means investing in infrastructure, training a larger skilled workforce, and scaling up supply chain throughput. Anything else, like pushing incomplete designs into production or farming out major sections overseas, just introduces more risk, delays, and long term costs.

We all want the RCDs delivered faster. But the answer isn’t shortcuts or offshore outsourcing. It’s capacity building at home so that we can deliver ships on time, on budget, and with the confidence that they’re built for Canadian needs, by Canadians.

I wasn't clear in my response, mea culpa.

What Davie is doing is good for Davie and for Canada in the end.

As for the River's, there are ways to speed up the process without necessarily expanding infrastructure capacity.

1) Move to an expanded work week - move from 37.5hrs to 40hrs or 42.5hrs or 45hrs a week - all of these will have measurable/tangible increases over the longer term in decreasing 'time to market' for the delivery of 15 Rivers. A move of an extra 5hrs a week (42.5hrs/week) may not seem like a lot over 1yr or even 3yrs but over 6-8+yrs it can be significant. Obviously any hours after 37.5hrs a week would be automatic 1.5X the hourly rate. So moving to 42.5hrs a week would be a 20% yearly pay increase to the worker.

2) Increase the size of the workforce. Much harder to do and much more time consuming but moving to '2 shifts' a day (morning/afternoon, much like an auto factory), would move things along in a much more quicker fashion. This approach is much harder than the above as it puts additional strain on the housing market in the Greater Halifax area, drains other areas of Canada of much needed skilled trades, leads to potential job losses once the project is completed.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I wasn't clear in my response, mea culpa.

What Davie is doing is good for Davie and for Canada in the end.

As for the River's, there are ways to speed up the process without necessarily expanding infrastructure capacity.

1) Move to an expanded work week - move from 37.5hrs to 40hrs or 42.5hrs or 45hrs a week - all of these will have measurable/tangible increases over the longer term in decreasing 'time to market' for the delivery of 15 Rivers. A move of an extra 5hrs a week (42.5hrs/week) may not seem like a lot over 1yr or even 3yrs but over 6-8+yrs it can be significant. Obviously any hours after 37.5hrs a week would be automatic 1.5X the hourly rate. So moving to 42.5hrs a week would be a 20% yearly pay increase to the worker.

2) Increase the size of the workforce. Much harder to do and much more time consuming but moving to '2 shifts' a day (morning/afternoon, much like an auto factory), would move things along in a much more quicker fashion. This approach is much harder than the above as it puts additional strain on the housing market in the Greater Halifax area, drains other areas of Canada of much needed skilled trades, leads to potential job losses once the project is completed.

There is already shift work happening, but blanket extension of people's day doesn't necessarily result in any real production improvement, as it's all sequenced, and for a lot of the automated stations and handling equipment you need production downtime to do maintenance on them. At a certain point adding more people working int he same area just slows things down, so managing work density during production is part of it.

Going from an 8 hour day to a 9 hour day may sound like not much on paper, but if you are spending a lot of those hours uncomfortable positions doing welding, that's a big deal, and quality drop off resulting in rework slows the schedule.

You also can't actually force people to work overtime, and already has been labour challenges at all 3 sites. Some of it was because we wanted to get things like electricians dual certified to do basic welding to improve productivity, and similar get pipe and mechanical fitters doing basic rigging. Things like that allow you to get the same crew doing the skilled work doing basic things like stud welding for cable runs, and moving light pipe asseblies and units into place, while saving the other trades for areas where you need more than an apprentice level of skill.

 

[Czech_pivo]

There is already shift work happening, but blanket extension of people's day doesn't necessarily result in any real production improvement, as it's all sequenced, and for a lot of the automated stations and handling equipment you need production downtime to do maintenance on them. At a certain point adding more people working int he same area just slows things down, so managing work density during production is part of it.

Going from an 8 hour day to a 9 hour day may sound like not much on paper, but if you are spending a lot of those hours uncomfortable positions doing welding, that's a big deal, and quality drop off resulting in rework slows the schedule.

You also can't actually force people to work overtime, and already has been labour challenges at all 3 sites. Some of it was because we wanted to get things like electricians dual certified to do basic welding to improve productivity, and similar get pipe and mechanical fitters doing basic rigging. Things like that allow you to get the same crew doing the skilled work doing basic things like stud welding for cable runs, and moving light pipe asseblies and units into place, while saving the other trades for areas where you need more than an apprentice level of skill.

Glad to hear that a number of issues surrounding increasing productivity have already been put into place and/or look at from a feasibility perspective.

Sad to hear that there have been Union challenges at all 3 sites. Have to say that I'm not surprised though.

 

[Stoker]

I wasn't clear in my response, mea culpa.

What Davie is doing is good for Davie and for Canada in the end.

As for the River's, there are ways to speed up the process without necessarily expanding infrastructure capacity.

1) Move to an expanded work week - move from 37.5hrs to 40hrs or 42.5hrs or 45hrs a week - all of these will have measurable/tangible increases over the longer term in decreasing 'time to market' for the delivery of 15 Rivers. A move of an extra 5hrs a week (42.5hrs/week) may not seem like a lot over 1yr or even 3yrs but over 6-8+yrs it can be significant. Obviously any hours after 37.5hrs a week would be automatic 1.5X the hourly rate. So moving to 42.5hrs a week would be a 20% yearly pay increase to the worker.

2) Increase the size of the workforce. Much harder to do and much more time consuming but moving to '2 shifts' a day (morning/afternoon, much like an auto factory), would move things along in a much more quicker fashion. This approach is much harder than the above as it puts additional strain on the housing market in the Greater Halifax area, drains other areas of Canada of much needed skilled trades, leads to potential job losses once the project is completed.

Of course it's good for Davie however if helping Canada means you’re gutting Canadian defence capability, exporting high value jobs, and bypassing the whole purpose of the NSS. that's the downside. Extending workweeks or adding shifts might offer marginal gains, but they don’t solve the core issue: infrastructure capacity. Adding 5 extra hours per week at overtime rates drives up costs and risks burnout without addressing physical bottlenecks like limited slipways, cranes, or staging areas. They are in the process of addressing some of these issues but much more should be done. Likewise, doubling shifts only works if the yard has the space, tooling, and logistics to support it which Irving currently doesn’t.

Outsourcing, like Davie’s approach, can help in the short term but comes with downsides already mentioned: integration challenges, reduced oversight, and political risk if too much work is offshored. It’s a workaround, not a foundation to build on.

The only viable way to speed up the River Class is to expand capacity. Whether that’s more buildings, a second production line, or partnering with other Canadian yards, we need more industrial throughput. The timelines will have to be brought forward and when that happens, capacity, not overtime, will determine success.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Of course it's good for Davie however if helping Canada means you’re gutting Canadian defence capability, exporting high value jobs, and bypassing the whole purpose of the NSS. that's the downside. Extending workweeks or adding shifts might offer marginal gains, but they don’t solve the core issue: infrastructure capacity. Adding 5 extra hours per week at overtime rates drives up costs and risks burnout without addressing physical bottlenecks like limited slipways, cranes, or staging areas. They are in the process of addressing some of these issues but much more should be done. Likewise, doubling shifts only works if the yard has the space, tooling, and logistics to support it which Irving currently doesn’t.

Outsourcing, like Davie’s approach, can help in the short term but comes with downsides already mentioned: integration challenges, reduced oversight, and political risk if too much work is offshored. It’s a workaround, not a foundation to build on.

The only viable way to speed up the River Class is to expand capacity. Whether that’s more buildings, a second production line, or partnering with other Canadian yards, we need more industrial throughput. The timelines will have to be brought forward and when that happens, capacity, not overtime, will determine success.

So, the mothballed facility in Saint John (that has been talked about ad nauseum in the past), is looking very very sensible in revitalizing.

 

[Stoker]

So, the mothballed facility in Saint John (that has been talked about ad nauseum in the past), is looking very very sensible in revitalizing.

or expanding Irving's footprint in Halifax harbour including partnering with another smaller yard for module production. All sorts of options.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Weird tangental thought- that should mean VDQ is faster than the rest of the Halifax Class?

In theory, but is a very small difference, as I think the difference at the waterline is much smaller than the tail to nose difference of a foot or so. Each ship is slightly diffferent anyways and speed through the water on any given day will be impacted by things like temperature and humidity (which impacts GT efficiency), how well the gearing and shaftline system is working that day, if the props are at the actual angle you think they air, temp of the water etc so too little of a difference to tell.

We also do smart things like stick a tail on to theoretically lengthen the underwater hull, but don't do a before and after baseline to see if it actually works, or if we actually increased the drag so who knows.

 

[Rainbow1910]

So, the mothballed facility in Saint John (that has been talked about ad nauseum in the past), is looking very very sensible in revitalizing.

Calling that facility “mothballed” is being incredibly generous as to the amount of effort, time and money that would be needed to bring it back to working order.

 

[Underway]

Weird tangental thought- that should mean VDQ is faster than the rest of the Halifax Class?

@Navy_Pete covered the physics, however Freddie holds the class speed record from what I understand. Like rowing weather and location also get a vote. That's why there are "course" records and not "world" records in rowing.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Glad to hear that a number of issues surrounding increasing productivity have already been put into place and/or look at from a feasibility perspective.

Sad to hear that there have been Union challenges at all 3 sites. Have to say that I'm not surprised though.

There is a lot of world class experts looking at improving the efficiency on both sides.

Union challenges are pretty common everywhere, and really can be personality driven and a bit generational, but when you treat them as partners and work with them, and get the leaders that understand that doing things different means sustained work for another generation, it makes a big difference. Ignoring practical concerns from union leaders, like them not wanting members to get eliminated, as well as working conditions, is a pretty good reason why some of those labour issues came up to begin with. Lot easier if they are part of the solution, but some are dinosaurs who would fight you over everything just to look good (and kind of what wiped out a lot of the auto worker jobs in Ontario when their union bosses made it easier to spend billions to relocate plants then work with them).

 

[Czech_pivo]

There is a lot of world class experts looking at improving the efficiency on both sides.

Union challenges are pretty common everywhere, and really can be personality driven and a bit generational, but when you treat them as partners and work with them, and get the leaders that understand that doing things different means sustained work for another generation, it makes a big difference. Ignoring practical concerns from union leaders, like them not wanting members to get eliminated, as well as working conditions, is a pretty good reason why some of those labour issues came up to begin with. Lot easier if they are part of the solution, but some are dinosaurs who would fight you over everything just to look good (and kind of what wiped out a lot of the auto worker jobs in Ontario when their union bosses made it easier to spend billions to relocate plants then work with them).

Your last sentence rings very true and is what I experienced first hand a number of times back in the very end of the 80's.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@Navy_Pete covered the physics, however Freddie holds the class speed record from what I understand. Like rowing weather and location also get a vote. That's why there are "course" records and not "world" records in rowing.

From all the full power trials I've done, usually the biggest limiting factor exhaust gas temperature, so calm seas on a cold day with a current assist is the best case scenario. You can put some things in manual and start to go past some of the full power parameters, but at that point you need so much extra power to go 0.1 knots faster and the potential failures are things that could be effectively ship killers it's not worth the risk, and frankly no one else really notices aside from us weirdos in the MCR cheering on the shaft power outputs.

The giant rooster tails are fun though!

 

[Underway]

The giant rooster tails are fun though!

I love the day sails when you get some visitors hanging on for dear life on the flight deck as you go 30 degrees over full power full helm.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And we'll have fun, fun, fun, t'ill the CO takes the T-Bird away.