Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[The Bread Guy]

Yes….that is what the crown is asking for….meanwhile the two parents of an infant that died from boiling water poured into his diaper were sentenced to 6 years less time served….our country is screwed.

Another bit of context: according to the CBC …

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-parents-get-6-year-sentence-after-toddler-dies-from-scalding-water-in-diaper-1.7592210

… the Crown asked for up to 12 years there, so again, they don’t always get what they wish for, so to speak. Based on the King sentencing, might end up seeing far less than what was asked for - we’ll see.

 

[OldSolduer]

Another bit of context: according to the CBC …

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-parents-get-6-year-sentence-after-toddler-dies-from-scalding-water-in-diaper-1.7592210

… the Crown asked for up to 12 years there, so again, they don’t always get what they wish for, so to speak. Based on the King sentencing, might end up seeing far less than what was asked for - we’ll see.

Meanwhile in Winnipeg you can get caught with 5Kg of fentanyl and be released on....an undertaking.

 

[YZT580]

Meanwhile in Winnipeg you can get caught with 5Kg of fentanyl and be released on....an undertaking.

but none of the above cases involved showing the middle finger to the PM

 

[brihard]

but none of the above cases involved showing the middle finger to the PM

You realize that the Ottawa convoy trials have all been in the lowest level provincial court, prosecuted by provincial crowns, right?

 

[GK .Dundas]

You realize that the Ottawa convoy trials have all been in the lowest level provincial court, prosecuted by provincial crowns, right?

Look, let's not bring facts into this argument.
Nobody wants that happen.

 

[YZT580]

You realize that the Ottawa convoy trials have all been in the lowest level provincial court, prosecuted by provincial crowns, right?

all cut from the same cloth, provincial and federal with similar biases or at least that is the way it appears to this layman. They are the ones handing out 6 months for injuries to an infant. Our judicial system suffers from liberalism and most people in my world (senior, retired, successful financially within reason, own home etc.) while we don't consider them corrupt, we believe that they don't understand the meaning of the word justice.

 

[The Bread Guy]

but none of the above cases involved showing the middle finger to the PM

Broken record here: this guy only got 3 months of house arrest for doing the same at about the same time ...

Crown appealing ‘Freedom Convoy’ organizer Pat King’s sentence

The Crown is appealing the three-month conditional sentence handed down to 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Pat King last month.

www.ctvnews.ca

... when the Crown originally asked for 10 years.

 

[QV]

Broken record here: this guy only got 3 months of house arrest for doing the same at about the same time ...

Crown appealing ‘Freedom Convoy’ organizer Pat King’s sentence

The Crown is appealing the three-month conditional sentence handed down to 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Pat King last month.

www.ctvnews.ca

... when the Crown originally asked for 10 years.

Would you consider that a good example of just how unreasonable the Crown is being? Requests 10 years imprisonment, result in 3 months house arrest. How far outside the realm of reasonable can we expect the Crown to be before being called out on it?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Would you consider that a good example of just how unreasonable the Crown is being? Requests 10 years imprisonment, result in 3 months house arrest.

My mistake: he got 3 months plus credit for time served, so he was already in jail.

How far outside the realm of reasonable can we expect the Crown to be before being called out on it?

I'll leave "reasonableness" to those smarter than me in all things legal (although I'd like to see justice that allows for both some punishment without torture, and some rehabilitation without being too loosey-goosey).

I'm just saying this isn't without precedent, and I don't remember the moaning & screaming when 10 years was sought for King

 

[YZT580]

My mistake: he got 3 months plus credit for time served, so he was already in jail.

I'll leave "reasonableness" to those smarter than me in all things legal (although I'd like to see justice that allows for both some punishment without torture, and some rehabilitation without being too loosey-goosey).

I'm just saying this isn't without precedent, and I don't remember the moaning & screaming when 10 years was sought for King

The crown asked for 10 years. The judge granted 3 months. There is a real disconnect here between the ask and the receive that I don't understand. Was the crime so heinous that only 10 years would satisfy the need for justice? Obviously the judge didn't agree (and I agree with the judge) but my honest question is why the 'ask' in the first place? What standard was being applied and what rationale or orders from on high guided the crown in the request?

 

[The Bread Guy]

... What standard was being applied and what rationale or orders from on high guided the crown in the request?

What do you make of what the Crowns themselves, as a group, had to say in that respect?

Post in thread 'Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]'

Wednesday at 16:38

Ontario's Crowns a bit underwhelmed this week ...

Crown attorneys' group accuses politicians, media of 'attacks' on justice system

OTTAWA - The president of the Ontario Crown Attorneys' Association says "attacks" launched by "politicians, media and members of the public" in response to two high-profile criminal cases amount to

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

.... with some excerpts below from this open letter touching on the complaints over sentencing recommendations:

Prosecutorial Independence and the Rule of Law - Ontario Crown Attorneys Association

Please find below an open letter from OCAA President, Donna Kellway, regarding recent attacks on prosecutorial independence and the rule of law: July 29, 2025 Prosecutorial Independence and the Rule...

www.ocaa.ca

• The Bread Guy

• 

 

[Brad Sallows]

Prosecutors ought first learn the concepts of "input legitimacy" and "output legitimacy". Their own actions are to blame for loss of the latter, and output legitimacy matters.

 

[brihard]

The crown asked for 10 years. The judge granted 3 months. There is a real disconnect here between the ask and the receive that I don't understand. Was the crime so heinous that only 10 years would satisfy the need for justice? Obviously the judge didn't agree (and I agree with the judge) but my honest question is why the 'ask' in the first place? What standard was being applied and what rationale or orders from on high guided the crown in the request?

Just to be clear, Pat King was not sentenced to three months full stop. His global sentence was a year, with nine months of it already served, and the remaining three months’ custody to be served in the community on a CSO. While there’s still a great disparity in what Crown asked for versus what he got, a sentence of one year with nine of them in jail differs a fair bit from a sentence of just three months total in the community. Pre-sentence custody is factored in as part of the total ‘amount owed’.

 

[YZT580]

Just to be clear, Pat King was not sentenced to three months full stop. His global sentence was a year, with nine months of it already served, and the remaining three months’ custody to be served in the community on a CSO. While there’s still a great disparity in what Crown asked for versus what he got, a sentence of one year with nine of them in jail differs a fair bit from a sentence of just three months total in the community. Pre-sentence custody is factored in as part of the total ‘amount owed’.

may I answer your question with a question? That is rhetorical by the way. Toronto has been plagued by anti-sematic demonstrations, threats and vandalism since October 7. How many of those demonstrators were charged and convicted and what penalties were the crowns asking for? The answer to the second half of that question will decide, at least for me, if the much cherished independence of the crowns as stated in your reply above was a legitimate argument on their part or whether they were just blowing smoke.

 

[brihard]

may I answer your question with a question? That is rhetorical by the way. Toronto has been plagued by anti-sematic demonstrations, threats and vandalism since October 7. How many of those demonstrators were charged and convicted and what penalties were the crowns asking for? The answer to the second half of that question will decide, at least for me, if the much cherished independence of the crowns as stated in your reply above was a legitimate argument on their part or whether they were just blowing smoke.

I didn’t ask a question but I’ll indulge you anyway since we’re a little bit up my alley on this.

I don’t know, but as none of those demonstrations resulted in a weeks-long occupation of an urban downtown, even were there organizers arrested and charged there would not be meaningful comparators to Pat King, or to whatever Livh and Barber are sentenced to.

Meaningful comparison will require similar charges, similar degrees of involvement and moral culpability, and readily comparable mitigating and aggravating factors.

The meaningful comparators that are available are individual participants in demonstrations who were charged with simpler instances of mischief. I can say from firsthand knowledge sitting in court that individual participants in the convoy who were arrested as part of the final clearance and round up generally got minor, non-custodial sentences.

Generally, a guilty plea results in a lower sentence. Relatively few convoy ‘just participants’ went to trial. One who did and who was convicted of obstruction and mischief (after an acquittal for mischief was succesfully appealed by the crown) was David Romlewski. He was ultimately sentenced to one day of probation on a suspended sentence. Lone convoy protester to appeal 'token' one-day sentence

If a pro-Palestinian protest locks up an urban downtown for three weeks and is forcibly driven out by Canada’s largest modern police public order operation, and if the organizers thereof are arrested and charged, and convicted at trial, it’ll be more feasible to do apples to apples comparison of sentencing positions.

 

[mariomike]

For readers following the class action lawsuit,

Jun 24, 2025

Lawsuit against truckers' convoy to proceed in Ottawa, Toronto judge rules

Lawsuit against truckers' convoy to proceed in Ottawa, Toronto judge rules

A Toronto judge has ruled proceedings in the proposed class action lawsuit against the truckers’ convoy will be held in Ottawa.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

For readers following the class action lawsuit,

Jun 24, 2025

Lawsuit against truckers' convoy to proceed in Ottawa, Toronto judge rules

Lawsuit against truckers' convoy to proceed in Ottawa, Toronto judge rules

A Toronto judge has ruled proceedings in the proposed class action lawsuit against the truckers’ convoy will be held in Ottawa.

ottawacitizen.com

Not sure I agree with this:

Glustein said that while Ottawa judges may have witnessed convoy events in Ottawa, it leaves them in no different a position than a Toronto judge who may have seen it in the media.

 

[Kirkhill]

Ontario's Crowns a bit underwhelmed this week ...

Crown attorneys' group accuses politicians, media of 'attacks' on justice system

OTTAWA - The president of the Ontario Crown Attorneys' Association says "attacks" launched by "politicians, media and members of the public" in response to two high-profile criminal cases amount to

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

.... with some excerpts below from this open letter touching on the complaints over sentencing recommendations:

Prosecutorial Independence and the Rule of Law - Ontario Crown Attorneys Association

Please find below an open letter from OCAA President, Donna Kellway, regarding recent attacks on prosecutorial independence and the rule of law: July 29, 2025 Prosecutorial Independence and the Rule...

www.ocaa.ca

View attachment 94928
View attachment 94929

Like any and every institution in a democracy the courts and the legal system should expect to be criticised.

They are not above criticism nor are the exempt parliamentary intervention. Notwithstanding.