Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Halifax Tar]

We send officers to 4 years of university. I was sent on a very expensive Masters degree to get me the skills I needed for a job. I think it's BS how much we try to shaft our NCMs.

We aren't even doing our units any favours. A half trained tech requires so much more mentoring and support. And all the training requires moving them around and waiting on PAT. Put them in one place for two years and organize the courses back to back and you get a pipeline with reduced waiting and a more useful product at the end.

I've actually advocated for this. Unfortunately the feedback I always get is that it's not worthwhile to spend that much on NCMs. Meanwhile we now have to pay bonuses for all these trades or sponsor education at community colleges throughout the country with no control on timing or curriculum.

The CAF doesn't seem to be big on PD/Education for NCMs, unless its FLT. Or the NCM wants to commission.

 

[ytz]

While we debate

Danish acquisition programmes - European Security & Defence

In response to an increasingly challenging international security environment, Denmark has decided to accelerate the modernisation of its armed forces. Efforts are being undertaken both in the short and long term, to strengthen Denmark’s deterrence capabilities and enhance its contribution to NATO.

euro-sd.com

Who's "we"?

I'm seeing projects starting to accelerate at work. "Can you move up IOC or FOC?" is starting to become a regular question whenever a project goes up to a review board. I wouldn't have even dreamed of this 6 months ago.

Whether we have the bandwidth to do so is a different question. I'm in space. We need a ton of cleared personnel. That's difficult. And there's so many projects that the pool of engineers and procurement staff is being stretched. It's not uncommon to see people literally working two projects at the same time. I've come across a person working on three major projects. Not sure how sustainable that is before they get burned out. But you won't hear complaints. Everybody gets the urgency. And most are happy that money is flowing.

 

[Furniture]

1) Training, especially technical training can be attractive for recruiting. So longer training that gets more civilian recognition actually has a benefit in getting butts in seats.

I agree and disagree. Training that gets people civilian equivalent qualifications is attractive. Long courses in and of themselves aren't. If in your first 5 years you can walk away with a civilian equivalent certification, but did it in three shorter courses, rather than all at once, it would likely make zero difference in the level of attractiveness of the occupation.

2) Longer initial training is cheaper. Counterintuitive. But with shorter courses there's more time at PAT platoon waiting for the next course. And then when trained, you're now sending them on TD at a high rank for more training.

On this point I completely disagree.

Shorter courses allow for more course starts in a year, as pointed out by @McG. Recruiting intake isn't controlled by the schools, so a person can join after a long course starts, and have to wait for the current course to end before even being considered to be loaded on the following serial.

Even if recruiting is planned for course starts, you still have issues with personnel being recoursed on basic, which can cause them to miss start dates. Now add in personnel who need to be recoursed on trades training, and it can become a far worse problem for generating PAT platoons with large numbers.

I was an instructor during the days of massive PAT platoons in places like Borden. The students that came through the school after a year on PAT were without exception terrible, and none that I recall stayed in much past their initial contract.

All this to say, I'm not opposed to high quality training that has civilian equivalent qualifications. I'm just opposed to front loading it with massive courses that teach a lot of classroom stuff, but leave people "qualified" to do a lot, but not realistically capable of doing much to the standard required of a trained _______.

 

[ytz]

All this to say, I'm not opposed to high quality training that has civilian equivalent qualifications. I'm just opposed to front loading it with massive courses that teach a lot of classroom stuff, but leave people "qualified" to do a lot, but not realistically capable of doing much to the standard required of a trained

We do POET right now for electronics technicians for months. Minus a few elective courses that's bascially a 2 yr electronics diploma. Making sure people get some ramp up in basic math and physics before teaching them electronics is not really that much of a burden. And centering it in one place is going to be more efficient. Instead of the madness of basic training in one location, POET in another and then trades training in another place and then fleet training after. Build a community college in Borden. Put a recruit school there. Put folks there for two years and what comes out of there should be ready to work on the line after just 2-3 months of type conversion/battle school/fleet school/etc.

 

[Furniture]

We do POET right now for electronics technicians for months. Minus a few elective courses that's bascially a 2 yr electronics diploma. Making sure people get some ramp up in basic math and physics before teaching them electronics is not really that much of a burden. And centering it in one place is going to be more efficient. Instead of the madness of basic training in one location, POET in another and then trades training in another place and then fleet training after. Build a community college in Borden. Put a recruit school there. Put folks there for two years and what comes out of there should be ready to work on the line after just 2-3 months of type conversion/battle school/fleet school/etc.

For some trades that might work, but there are other trades that don't do POET. This is why one-size-fits-all solutions to CAF problems don't exist.

 

[CountDC]

If I was 20 years old looking to join the CF as a pilot. What choices do I have. Wait a year to get recruited then how ever long it takes waiting for an eternity to get clearance from flight medical and testing. Then have to wait indefinitely for training. Or go somewhere else.
Until the CF get serious about buying lots of new equipment, then getting the training lines up and functioning properly expect to see the same over and over again.
How many people are sitting in PAT platoon across Canada, kicking the box sweeping the floor?

From the information I see even the admin trades are losing people from having them sit on PAT too long. Many are releasing as they get fed up waiting on a course.

 

[Maxman1]

You mean like 'an apprenticeship'?

What a novel idea

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As I've said elsewhere, the government is using defence spending for industrial and technological investment. This is more obvious to those working on a project or at the staff level.

This also means the folks dreaming about minutiae on how brigades will be designed are going to be disappointed. The purchases most likely to be greenlighted and accelerated are the ones with the most spending or tech development at home. Space projects are a good example. Likewise for a lot of shipbuilding.

You think that Roshel would get some of that action then, I wonder who in government/Liberal Party they pissed off?

 

[Czech_pivo]

You think that Roshel would get some of that action then, I wonder who in government/Liberal Party they pissed off?

Who says that they have?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They could start beefing up our fleets right now, but they don't get any contracts for the CAF. We could use them for Ambulances, CP's and even APC's for the Reserves.

 

[Czech_pivo]

They could start beefing up our fleets right now, but they don't get any contracts for the CAF. We could use them for Ambulances, CP's and even APC's for the Reserves.

It could be the case that they've got zero excess capacity because they are running flat out supplying Ukraine.

Roshel has sent over 1,700 Senator armored vehicles to Ukraine, with the milestone of the 1,700th vehicle delivered in March 2025. These vehicles, supplied by Canada and other nations, have been provided to Ukraine's military and law enforcement agencies.

I would imagine that the number can only be much higher now.

 

[Kirkhill]

It could be the case that they've got zero excess capacity because they are running flat out supplying Ukraine.

Roshel has sent over 1,700 Senator armored vehicles to Ukraine, with the milestone of the 1,700th vehicle delivered in March 2025. These vehicles, supplied by Canada and other nations, have been provided to Ukraine's military and law enforcement agencies.

I would imagine that the number can only be much higher now.

Roshel has launched production of armored vehicles in Ukraine - Militarnyi

Canadian armored vehicle manufacturer Roshel has launched production in Ukraine.

militarnyi.com

They should have some spare capacity in Toronto now that they are manufacturing in Ukraine as well.

Unless they prefer working with high speed Ukrainians over Canadian bureaucrats.

 

[foresterab]

There's a number of angles.

1) Training, especially technical training can be attractive for recruiting. So longer training that gets more civilian recognition actually has a benefit in getting butts in seats.

2) Longer initial training is cheaper. Counterintuitive. But with shorter courses there's more time at PAT platoon waiting for the next course. And then when trained, you're now sending them on TD at a high rank for more training.

Given that the CAF can educate and train continuously, I would love to see a CAF College of Applied Arts and Technology in Borden. You're posted to Borden for 2 years. In that time, you finish Basic Training, get an accelerated 2 yr college diploma and a 3 month trade conversion so your general diploma in electronics teaches you to be an avionics tech for example. In exchange, we get 4 years of service out of you. Start a new class every single 3 months. Programs grouped around broad basic skill sets like mechanical tech, structural repair, admin, electronics, healthcare. Then market the heck out of 6 years in the CAF getting you a college diploma and 4 yrs of work experience.

This is a role I can see with RMC. Turn it into a mixture of ROTC training, General Staff advanced studies, and most importantly a coordination center for online schooling/community college type training. For reference Royal Roads College, Athabasca University, University of Manitoba, University of Guelph are all schools I've heard referenced by ex-CAF members. There has to be more that would be available especially if RMC had a cleaner translation/competency credit evaluation table to share with organizations that says RMC recognizes CAF course X as the equivalent to RMC course LEAD101 (Leadership 101) or FRE201 (French Language training to competency grade C).

I've met several ex-military members...all NCM's...who have acquired additional skills through a mixture of CAF courses and additional schooling. Some skills like completing a language skill are easy to transfer to some academic areas as equivalent course material, others like leadership training depends on the school. But in a perfect world the member would be allowed to take additional upgrading/training starting from their 3rd? year with the CAF (maybe 2nd if skilled trade specific) with the goal of becoming a more rounded CAF member. If there are select trades type courses that benefit the CAF...for example an electrician working towards a full ticket...then full tuition coverage provided. If its something more generic like moving to a basic Bachelor of Arts degree in history then only partial tuition payment offered?

This might require a re-evaluation of post release support...for example:
Current situation - CAF member releases and is eligible for some transition training/funding
Future options - CAF member can receive training while serving in exchange for reduced transition funding.

I've probably messed up a bunch of facts around releasing from the CAF so apologies to those who have experienced things differently and always look forward to learning more.

 

[lenaitch]

There's a number of angles.

1) Training, especially technical training can be attractive for recruiting. So longer training that gets more civilian recognition actually has a benefit in getting butts in seats.

2) Longer initial training is cheaper. Counterintuitive. But with shorter courses there's more time at PAT platoon waiting for the next course. And then when trained, you're now sending them on TD at a high rank for more training.

Given that the CAF can educate and train continuously, I would love to see a CAF College of Applied Arts and Technology in Borden. You're posted to Borden for 2 years. In that time, you finish Basic Training, get an accelerated 2 yr college diploma and a 3 month trade conversion so your general diploma in electronics teaches you to be an avionics tech for example. In exchange, we get 4 years of service out of you. Start a new class every single 3 months. Programs grouped around broad basic skill sets like mechanical tech, structural repair, admin, electronics, healthcare. Then market the heck out of 6 years in the CAF getting you a college diploma and 4 yrs of work experience.

Are any of the standards, etc. of CAF trades that have a civilian equivalent recognized by any provincial or federal regulator, guild, etc. either in whole or in part?

 

[Kirkhill]

Once upon a time people learned trades by holding the dumb end of the tape, fetching left handed screwdrivers and pulling wire while leaning over the shoulder of a tradesman.

 

[dapaterson]

Are any of the standards, etc. of CAF trades that have a civilian equivalent recognized by any provincial or federal regulator, guild, etc. either in whole or in part?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: there are equivalencies tracked both directions, with formal policies in the 5031 DAOD series.

 

[FJAG]

There's a number of angles.

1) Training, especially technical training can be attractive for recruiting. So longer training that gets more civilian recognition actually has a benefit in getting butts in seats.

2) Longer initial training is cheaper. Counterintuitive. But with shorter courses there's more time at PAT platoon waiting for the next course. And then when trained, you're now sending them on TD at a high rank for more training.

Given that the CAF can educate and train continuously, I would love to see a CAF College of Applied Arts and Technology in Borden. You're posted to Borden for 2 years. In that time, you finish Basic Training, get an accelerated 2 yr college diploma and a 3 month trade conversion so your general diploma in electronics teaches you to be an avionics tech for example. In exchange, we get 4 years of service out of you. Start a new class every single 3 months. Programs grouped around broad basic skill sets like mechanical tech, structural repair, admin, electronics, healthcare. Then market the heck out of 6 years in the CAF getting you a college diploma and 4 yrs of work experience.

This is why I'm an advocate of converting all the CAF WO ranks to versions of staff sergeant, master sergeant etc to supply the NCM leadership required and using the WO rank title the way that the American army does as a rank group that falls between the current NCMs and officers.

I would see WOs used as direct entry positions for numerous specialized technical fields using either community college, university or CAF-home grown education and with pay rates more equivalent to officer pay rates than NCMs.

Like @foresterab I see this more as a "WO college" at RMC because there are a number of educational facilities there, both civilian and military, that one could draw on.

 

[YZT580]

This is a role I can see with RMC. Turn it into a mixture of ROTC training, General Staff advanced studies, and most importantly a coordination center for online schooling/community college type training. For reference Royal Roads College, Athabasca University, University of Manitoba, University of Guelph are all schools I've heard referenced by ex-CAF members. There has to be more that would be available especially if RMC had a cleaner translation/competency credit evaluation table to share with organizations that says RMC recognizes CAF course X as the equivalent to RMC course LEAD101 (Leadership 101) or FRE201 (French Language training to competency grade C).

I couldn't help but notice that your list of schools are all universities. Both Heddle, here in Ontario, and Seaspan for BC have teamed up with community colleges to train future employees. Most of the trades I have read about on these pages are skills related. Surely a little coordination with the colleges could establish and maintain a training syllabus that would meet your needs as well as industry's.

 

[foresterab]

This is why I'm an advocate of converting all the CAF WO ranks to versions of staff sergeant, master sergeant etc to supply the NCM leadership required and using the WO rank title the way that the American army does as a rank group that falls between the current NCMs and officers.

I would see WOs used as direct entry positions for numerous specialized technical fields using either community college, university or CAF-home grown education and with pay rates more equivalent to officer pay rates than NCMs.

Like @foresterab I see this more as a "WO college" at RMC because there are a number of educational facilities there, both civilian and military, that one could draw on.

I would argue the bar should be even lower.

My late grandfather - RCAF during WW2 - was a participant of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. I was privileged enough to be able to visit several flight museums with him and learn stuff even his own children didn't hear. But I often think of his comment when looking at a Lancaster bomber on display...

The war...yes...we all knew we were going. But the understated impact of taking a bunch of recruits and providing them with a world class college education in 9 months through the BCATP is the true success of Canada.

Now I understand failure rates/trades transfers were high - my grandfather was one of them washing out of pilot school - but the emphasis was train/test then move them to the next stage as demand/time allows. So take that new private and offer them the ability to move to a specialist role if they have skills in trade X or start developing the next WO when they're 22 instead of waiting until they're 30 and then looking at the education needed to retain them/transfer to officer corps. My grandfather left the RCAF as a Sgt. but that was based more upon his trade - flight engineer - than time in service.

I would argue that the first year of a new recruits time is about basic training and basic skill set training post basic. But after the first year? 18 months? open up training options especially if they can be voluntary additional tasks such as:
1) language practice on the following languages ________ via something as simple as the Duolingo phone app. CAF will pay for app. If score X is reached then competency grade of Y will be entered into file.
2) critical skill set needed - drone pilots license for example. CAF will re-imburse 100% of cost upon completion if taken from providers A, B or C.
3) development barrier for further education - Grade 12 GED. CAF will re-imburse 75% of course cost upon passing grade.
4) development barrier for future promotion needs - Bachelor degree. CAF will re-imburse 50% of course cost upon passing grade from RMC/partner school. Eligible for initial degree only.

It is a tough line to figure out though because the trade a CAF member is within affects the opportunities available and then there are the internal Federal Government processes/DND/CAF policies involved. So if an officer requires a university degree (a separate discussion point on the forum here) then how does a new private get that degree? If a trade requires a ticket like the reference to air brake training above...how do we arrange for additional key training options to be recognized?

 

[YZT580]

Once upon a time people learned trades by holding the dumb end of the tape, fetching left handed screwdrivers and pulling wire while leaning over the shoulder of a tradesman.

don't forget the bucket of propwash!