The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[MilEME09]

Sounds like a permanent posting to Europe with a couple squadrons of RCAF Rafales in German bases.

If we bought Rafales, you might as well make it a posting to France

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Twin Otter isn't ITAR

So slow the AA radars will think it's a flock of seagulls and won't realize the mistake, till the loadmaster start lobbing M67 grenades out the door and plinking with a .303

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Doesn’t make it the best alternative for Canada. Rafale far better if we’re going to split-fleet things. Non-ITAR controlled (Gripen remains ITAR controlled), nuclear weapon capable, future compatibility with *USN CVNs if we go with Rafale M, follow-on fabrication in Canada, etc.

I think they just trialed a non-ITAR engine in them.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

If I were King/PM/advisor for a day, in the current climate, here’s what I’d do:

- Assess a pure-NORAD min F-35 fleet. I agree with you, it is likely more than 16. I don’t know the particular task and force generation sortie rate to support that since I didn’t do any hard Cheyenne Mtn/Peterson AFB time, but my gut says it would be in the mid-30s to low-40s area as a min. Intent would be to address Continental defence/se requirements for: a) valid alliance reasons; and b) address the past ‘not doing our share’ rhetoric. I would commit Canada to purchase this many F-35s…and order them.

- for the Expeditionary role, non-NORAD role, I would think of a fleet of Rafale similar size to the Continental defence/se requirements. The Rafale is no slouch in its own right. More than likely far more operationally capable than some of the “5th Gen” fighters out there (Su-57 anyone).

I would switch your fleets around.

The F-35 for NORAD is a waste of resources. The main threat is old Russian (Chinese?) bombers releasing lots of ALCMs. For that you need a aircraft that can carry lots of AAMs. The F-35 doesn't have the internal capacity to carry large number of missiles and would have to mount them externally, negating its stealth capability.

The Rafale on the other hand has up to 14 hardpoints so it can carry lots of AAMs to take out Russian launched ALCMs. Perfect for NORAD.

The F-35 was designed, using its stealth and sensor/communication capabilities to penetrate enemy first lines defenses, not to chase after wayward aircraft, drug smugglers, aircraft hijacked by terrorists or worse case Russian/Chinese bombers.

 

[KevinB]

I would switch your fleets around.

The F-35 for NORAD is a waste of resources. The main threat is old Russian (Chinese?) bombers releasing lots of ALCMs. For that you need a aircraft that can carry lots of AAMs. The F-35 doesn't have the internal capacity to carry large number of missiles and would have to mount them externally, negating its stealth capability.

The Rafale on the other hand has up to 14 hardpoints so it can carry lots of AAMs to take out Russian launched ALCMs. Perfect for NORAD.

The F-35 was designed, using its stealth and sensor/communication capabilities to penetrate enemy first lines defenses, not to chase after wayward aircraft, drug smugglers, aircraft hijacked by terrorists or worse case Russian/Chinese bombers.

Hence F-15 EX for NORAD role.
Plus Anti-Satellite and other nice things it can carry.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I think they just trialed a non-ITAR engine in them.

They proposed one a long time ago but it went nowhere, they haven't done anything recently with engines that I am aware of. Profits aren't there with the Gripen to justify the integration, testing and fielding.

 

[KevinB]

They proposed one a long time ago but it went nowhere, they haven't done anything recently with engines that I am aware of. Profits aren't there with the Gripen to justify the integration, testing and fielding.

Agreed. With the integration into NATO, the reality of not really being able to sell non ITAR stuff jumps up.

 

[Genetk44]

Didn't Rafales take a few hits recently in the latest Indo/Pak dustup?

 

[Quirky]

Didn't Rafales take a few hits recently in the latest Indo/Pak dustup?

How Pakistan shot down India's cutting-edge fighter using Chinese gear

The downing of the Rafale, the jewel of India's fleet, surprised many in the military community and raised questions about the effectiveness of Western military hardware against untested Chinese alternatives.

www.reuters.com

 

[PrairieFella]

Makes you wonder if the decision fell to SK for Subs and Tanks…

One can hope. The K2 can do some real cool shit that puts Leos and Abrams to shame in some ways.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How Pakistan shot down India's cutting-edge fighter using Chinese gear

The downing of the Rafale, the jewel of India's fleet, surprised many in the military community and raised questions about the effectiveness of Western military hardware against untested Chinese alternatives.

www.reuters.com

I take both sides claims with salt, but it looks like they got cocky and perhaps were lured into a SAM trap.

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting @Good2Golf
Personally the only split fleet I think makes sense is the F-35A and F-15 EX. Regardless of option, I don’t think a split fleet for the RCAF makes a great deal of sense without a requirement for a lot more airframes.

The F-35 was a *nod to playing semi-nice with Trumpland. The Rafale would be a “Your yesterday’s superpower, police the world on your own.”

I have always been a fan of the Eagle, but the 15EX is a uniquely capable asset that doesn’t fit in with Canada’s….idiom.

If we bought Rafales, you might as well make it a posting to France

…or Poland…

I think they just trialed a non-ITAR engine in them.

Didn’t pan out, still an ITAR-controlled Volvo-built GE-licensed F414.

I would switch your fleets around.

The F-35 for NORAD is a waste of resources. The main threat is old Russian (Chinese?) bombers releasing lots of ALCMs. For that you need a aircraft that can carry lots of AAMs. The F-35 doesn't have the internal capacity to carry large number of missiles and would have to mount them externally, negating its stealth capability.

The Rafale on the other hand has up to 14 hardpoints so it can carry lots of AAMs to take out Russian launched ALCMs. Perfect for NORAD.

The F-35 was designed, using its stealth and sensor/communication capabilities to penetrate enemy first lines defenses, not to chase after wayward aircraft, drug smugglers, aircraft hijacked by terrorists or worse case Russian/Chinese bombers.

No. America would be pissy about having a non-US fighter in NORAD.

Didn't Rafales take a few hits recently in the latest Indo/Pak dustup?

Yes, giving credit where credit is due…PAK ran a very well-synchronized JADC2 assault on the IAF forces, including having a Saab Global-Eye radar-equipped AEE plane both painting the Indian Rafales while the PAF J-10s ran their radars in Rx-mode only, basically guiding them and their PL-15 missiles onto the IAF Rafales using semi-active fire control methods (like earlier AIM-120 Sparrow missiles). The Rafales only ‘saw’ the PAK AEW radar plane from further away and didn’t take any defensive posture for other threats in their airspace. Indian fighter pilots and C2 were arrogant and *they paid for it. It was a BLOS/BVR engagement and theIAF wasn’t using anywhere near the capabilities of the Rafale. I bet you if the IAF had been flying F-35s, they also would have had one or two shot down. China….err Pakistan won that engagement hands down.

 

[childs56]

Isnt one of the benefits of the F35 program was to be able to control Unmanned wingmen (6th gen fighters). In theory you need less Manned fighters to be able to cover the same foot print using a compliment of unmanned aircraft.

 

[Good2Golf]

Isnt one of the benefits of the F35 program was to be able to control Unmanned wingmen (6th gen fighters). In theory you need less Manned fighters to be able to cover the same foot print using a compliment of unmanned aircraft.

If by 6th Gen, you specifically mean the F-47, then perhaps if they are used as an optionally-piloted aircraft. Otherwise, numerous 4/4* Gen fighters would be able to control CCA (collaborative combat aircraft) with applicable connectivity embodied.

 

[childs56]

If by 6th Gen, you specifically mean the F-47, then perhaps if they are used as an optionally-piloted aircraft. Otherwise, numerous 4/4* Gen fighters would be able to control CCA (collaborative combat aircraft) with applicable connectivity embodied.

yes but the F35 is stealthy where the others are not at the same level.