Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[CountDC]

We literally have not seen this level of spending in 40 years.

Literally nobody serving today in uniform or the Public Service has seen this in their career.

Hmmmm - 40 years ago i was in uniform and I have a co-worker that was also in 40 years ago. Thinking the literally falls apart on one of those lines.

 

[ytz]

Hmmmm - 40 years ago i was in uniform and I have a co-worker that was also in 40 years ago. Thinking the literally falls apart on one of those lines.

So like all five of you. LOL. Stand by for posting to ADM(POL) and ADM(FIN).

 

[Kirkhill]

Anything coming for Prince Rupert/Vancouver also looks like it's coming for Seattle.

Anything coming for our east coast ports also looks like it's coming for US northeast ports.

Land-based coastal defence has a business case, just like every other potential capability, but it should be way, way down on the to-do list.

A CF-18 is land based.
Its primary role is air defence.
It is also available for coastal defence and to support ground forces.

It only adds 540 km to any missile it is carrying. That is roughly the range of the first iteration of the PrSM which can be launched from the 26 HIMARS we are buying ( apparently). That range is increasing to 1500 km in the next iteration and well beyond that in the future.

The HIMARS-PrSM combination is a lot more cost effective than the CF-18 Cold Lake combination with or without the additional cost of MRTTs.

And the costs of missiles is going down while the capabilities are going up.

I understand that even Canada can now look at launching its own satellites on its own missiles from its own launch site.

Students from Concordia University look to make history with first Canadian rocket launch in years | Watch News Videos Online

Watch Students from Concordia University look to make history with first Canadian rocket launch in years Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca

globalnews.ca

Check out this video from this search, canada first space rocket https://share.google/z5bsZjx3QjV5VuQ0U

 

[CountDC]

So like all five of you. LOL. Stand by for posting to ADM(POL) and ADM(FIN).

I'll take the Adm(FIN). Worked there before and it was great. Make it quick though as I release in a month and want to get the posting money.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A CF-18 is land based.
Its primary role is air defence.
It is also available for coastal defence and to support ground forces.

It only adds 540 km to any missile it is carrying. That is roughly the range of the first iteration of the PrSM which can be launched from the 26 HIMARS we are buying ( apparently). That range is increasing to 1500 km in the next iteration and well beyond that in the future.

The HIMARS-PrSM combination is a lot more cost effective than the CF-18 Cold Lake combination with or without the additional cost of MRTTs.

And the costs of missiles is going down while the capabilities are going up.

I understand that even Canada can now look at launching its own satellites on its own missiles from its own launch site.

Students from Concordia University look to make history with first Canadian rocket launch in years | Watch News Videos Online

Watch Students from Concordia University look to make history with first Canadian rocket launch in years Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca

globalnews.ca

Check out this video from this search, canada first space rocket https://share.google/z5bsZjx3QjV5VuQ0U

Sure.

But not right now. Let's see if we can get a firing battalion for the army going first.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure.

But not right now. Let's see if we can get a firing battalion for the army going first.

I am fine with that.
I just agree with @FJAG that the HIMARS system offers a lot of DoC options and a lot of growth potential.

And I will say the same of any GBAD/CUAS purchases.

 

[Cloud Cover]

You army guys are so obsessed with getting toys that you refuse to understand how our sea control system works. We do our best to detect, classify and sometimes even intercept ships thousands of km from our shores. If it's a military threat? A coastal launcher will not be as quick to respond or have the range of a P-8, F-35 or MQ-9. If we're at the point where we need a coastal defence battery to drive up to a pad to fire off a missile with 500 km of range at most, something has seriously gone wrong.

Also, unless the ROEs change and we're now going the American route of blowing up dinghies indiscriminately, the government generally wants us to actually support law enforcement doing the boarding and detaining part. Blowing them up isn't the first priority.

100%

 

[ytz]

A CF-18 is land based.
Its primary role is air defence.
It is also available for coastal defence and to support ground forces.

It only adds 540 km to any missile it is carrying. That is roughly the range of the first iteration of the PrSM which can be launched from the 26 HIMARS we are buying ( apparently). That range is increasing to 1500 km in the next iteration and well beyond that in the future.

The HIMARS-PrSM combination is a lot more cost effective than the CF-18 Cold Lake combination with or without the additional cost of MRTTs.

And the costs of missiles is going down while the capabilities are going up.

Redo your math for the actual reality of how we do ship detection.

1) Space based ISR that looks far out over the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic.
2) Maritime Patrol aircraft with trans-oceanic ranges and the ability to drop a literal tonne of ordinance on to a target.
3) See the range for upcoming MQ-9s and F-35s.
4) Tankers.

The idea that RJOC is going to spot a target 2000 km out, fail to classify and identify it, and then fail to deploy a whole bunch of air and sea assets against it as it is getting closer and then instead of calling up the CAOC to get something fast on site but instead call up some army battalion in god knows where and tell them to drive out to launch pad and sink something with a PrSM, is all well, I don't have words to describe how hilarously out of touch this is with reality.

Even if it's a random sub that pops up without us having a clue, the likelihood that a random HIMARS section is ready to go and faster than high readiness air assets is nonsense. Fighter guys sleep in a hangar waiting to launch for NORAD. There's no equivalent for rocket artillery and creating that would be insanely expensive and poor value for money.

 

[QV]

Redo your math for the actual reality of how we do ship detection.

1) Space based ISR that looks far out over the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic.
2) Maritime Patrol aircraft with trans-oceanic ranges and the ability to drop a literal tonne of ordinance on to a target.
3) See the range for upcoming MQ-9s and F-35s.
4) Tankers.

The idea that RJOC is going to spot a target 2000 km out, fail to classify and identify it, and then fail to deploy a whole bunch of air and sea assets against it as it is getting closer and then instead of calling up the CAOC to get something fast on site but instead call up some army battalion in god knows where and tell them to drive out to launch pad and sink something with a PrSM, is all well, I don't have words to describe how hilarously out of touch this is with reality.

Even if it's a random sub that pops up without us having a clue, the likelihood that a random HIMARS section is ready to go and faster than high readiness air assets is nonsense. Fighter guys sleep in a hangar waiting to launch for NORAD. There's no equivalent for rocket artillery and creating that would be insanely expensive and poor value for money.

The real question is what will the Canadian name for the "Reaper" be, any guess?

 

[Remius]

The real question is what will the Canadian name for the "Reaper" be, any guess?

The Snowy Owl

 

[Kirkhill]

Redo your math for the actual reality of how we do ship detection.

1) Space based ISR that looks far out over the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic.
2) Maritime Patrol aircraft with trans-oceanic ranges and the ability to drop a literal tonne of ordinance on to a target.
3) See the range for upcoming MQ-9s and F-35s.
4) Tankers.

The idea that RJOC is going to spot a target 2000 km out, fail to classify and identify it, and then fail to deploy a whole bunch of air and sea assets against it as it is getting closer and then instead of calling up the CAOC to get something fast on site but instead call up some army battalion in god knows where and tell them to drive out to launch pad and sink something with a PrSM, is all well, I don't have words to describe how hilarously out of touch this is with reality.

Even if it's a random sub that pops up without us having a clue, the likelihood that a random HIMARS section is ready to go and faster than high readiness air assets is nonsense. Fighter guys sleep in a hangar waiting to launch for NORAD. There's no equivalent for rocket artillery and creating that would be insanely expensive and poor value for money.

How much do all those air and sea assets cost?

How much does it cost to permanently base a battery of launchers anywhere?

I am not bothered about the missiles because those, as I noted, are constantly getting cheaper, more capable and longer ranged. And that goes for those that are air and sea launched.

And the supply connection from the warehouse to the launcher is a lot more secure and can carry a lot more rounds.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The real question is what will the Canadian name for the "Reaper" be, any guess?

I propose this from Ojibwe

• Nibo-ishpayi'ii: Death from above.

We call it "Nibo-ishpayi'ii"

 

[Remius]

I propose this from Ojibwe

• Nibo-ishpayi'ii: Death from above.

We call it "Nibo-ishpayi'ii"

Nibs for short

 

[Kirkhill]

I will stipulate no change in our existing structure beyond what is planned. I will further stipulate that we will retain all our existing capabilities.

With that said I propose raising 4 Artillery Regiments, one each for Esquimalt and Shearwater as well as Prince Rupert and St John's.

Each Regiment has a primary focus on regional air defence. It coordinates CUAS activities of all units in the area and supplies three or four MRAD batteries.

It also retains a counter-strike capability. It has a battery of 8 HIMARS launchers armed with PrSMs. It also has a troop of 4 MQ-58 Valkyrie launchers.

The Valkyries can be used for ISR. They can be used as Loitering Munitions. They can be used for strikes in their own right. They can be used as bomb trucks or decoys. They can be used in support of destroyers, corvettes or subs or in support of F18s, F35s, P8s or MQ-9Bs.

And it gives each Regiment, with the footprint of a parking lot, an extreme range capability of 5600 km.

Distance from Halifax to London is 4600 km.

Distance from St John's to Alert is 3400 km. With Russia being 1800 km beyond that the regiment's 5600 km range would put it 400 km deep into Russia. Exclusive of any powered munitions the Valkyries may carry.

Distance from Prince Rupert to Alert is 2900 km. 900 km deep into Russia.

Distance from Esquimalt to Honolulu is 4400 km.

 

[KevinB]

I will stipulate no change in our existing structure beyond what is planned. I will further stipulate that we will retain all our existing capabilities.

With that said I propose raising 4 Artillery Regiments, one each for Esquimalt and Shearwater as well as Prince Rupert and St John's.

Each Regiment has a primary focus on regional air defence. It coordinates CUAS activities of all units in the area and supplies three or four MRAD batteries.

It also retains a counter-strike capability. It has a battery of 8 HIMARS launchers armed with PrSMs. It also has a troop of 4 MQ-58 Valkyrie launchers.

The Valkyries can be used for ISR. They can be used as Loitering Munitions. They can be used for strikes in their own right. They can be used as bomb trucks or decoys. They can be used in support of destroyers, corvettes or subs or in support of F18s, F35s, P8s or MQ-9Bs.

And it gives each Regiment, with the footprint of a parking lot, an extreme range capability of 5600 km.

Distance from Halifax to London is 4600 km.

Distance from St John's to Alert is 3400 km. With Russia being 1800 km beyond that the regiment's 5600 km range would put it 400 km deep into Russia. Exclusive of any powered munitions the Valkyries may carry.

Distance from Prince Rupert to Alert is 2900 km. 900 km deep into Russia.

Distance from Esquimalt to Honolulu is 4400 km.

Except the DoC Div is basically 100% PRes at this point.
Which means it isn’t really a DoC Div, as by the time the PRes get activated, arrive at their site, draw equipment, get ammo, move out as necessary, and are ready for action the event is over and has been for quite some time (for better or worse).

The DoC is just a way for the Reg Force to shunt the PRes off and spend nothing on them.

 

[ytz]

How much do all those air and sea assets cost?

Irrelevant. Because we are buying them anyway. They address more than the current threat being discussed.

How much does it cost to permanently base a battery of launchers anywhere?

It's not so much that you have to base a battery of launchers anywhere. It's that covering the coast to the same level that aircaft could do, would require a ton of launchers and a ton of launcher crews on stand by. And then a whole lot of infrastructure. All for something that a P-8 out of Greenwood or Comox, or F-35 out of CL or Bag can do anyway.

Again. There's not much of a scenario where we let something get close enough to hit with a PrSM but also can't respond to fast enough with aircraft that are already on standby. If you think this is wrong, you can take a stab at detailing exactly what that gap is.

 

[ytz]

Except the DoC Div is basically 100% PRes at this point.
Which means it isn’t really a DoC Div, as by the time the PRes get activated, arrive at their site, draw equipment, get ammo, move out as necessary, and are ready for action the event is over and has been for quite some time (for better or worse).

The DoC is just a way for the Reg Force to shunt the PRes off and spend nothing on them.

I wouldn't go that far. But I do think there's asymmetric speed on development here. There's an urgent need to get the regular army to the point they can provide heft in Europe. And so that is being prioritized. Meanwhile they are working out what to do with the reserves. And putting them in a separate org does enable this asymmetry.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You army guys are so obsessed with getting toys that you refuse to understand how our sea control system works. We do our best to detect, classify and sometimes even intercept ships thousands of km from our shores. If it's a military threat? A coastal launcher will not be as quick to respond or have the range of a P-8, F-35 or MQ-9. If we're at the point where we need a coastal defence battery to drive up to a pad to fire off a missile with 500 km of range at most, something has seriously gone wrong.

Also, unless the ROEs change and we're now going the American route of blowing up dinghies indiscriminately, the government generally wants us to actually support law enforcement doing the boarding and detaining part. Blowing them up isn't the first priority.

The Canadian Army feels it needs to be the dominant element in the CAF. And it will feel threatened and scared if it can't somehow have a say in something. If it could it would inset itself in ASW somehow.

 

[McG]

I will stipulate no change in our existing structure beyond what is planned. I will further stipulate that we will retain all our existing capabilities.

With that said I propose raising 4 Artillery Regiments, one each for Esquimalt and Shearwater as well as Prince Rupert and St John's.

Each Regiment has a primary focus on regional air defence. It coordinates CUAS activities of all units in the area and supplies three or four MRAD batteries.

It also retains a counter-strike capability. It has a battery of 8 HIMARS launchers armed with PrSMs. It also has a troop of 4 MQ-58 Valkyrie launchers.

The Valkyries can be used for ISR. They can be used as Loitering Munitions. They can be used for strikes in their own right. They can be used as bomb trucks or decoys. They can be used in support of destroyers, corvettes or subs or in support of F18s, F35s, P8s or MQ-9Bs.

And it gives each Regiment, with the footprint of a parking lot, an extreme range capability of 5600 km.

Distance from Halifax to London is 4600 km.

Distance from St John's to Alert is 3400 km. With Russia being 1800 km beyond that the regiment's 5600 km range would put it 400 km deep into Russia. Exclusive of any powered munitions the Valkyries may carry.

Distance from Prince Rupert to Alert is 2900 km. 900 km deep into Russia.

Distance from Esquimalt to Honolulu is 4400 km.

Nothing in your costal batteries adds significant value except the RPAS that probably don’t belong in artillery batteries.

 

[ytz]

The Canadian Army feels it needs to be the dominant element in the CAF. And it will feel threatened and scared if it can't somehow have a say in something. If it could it would inset itself in ASW somehow.

Very much. Dudes twisting themselves into pretzels to justify more HIMARS. If you want more, just make the case for the expeditionary force to have more. At least that is sellable. Instead of arguing that the only solution to a dark contact is to sling a US$3.5M PrSM at it. I don't think they understand how ridiculous this sounds to anybody who has spent 5 mins in an RJOC or the CAOC.