Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[daftandbarmy]

I recall my battalion had to do riot control training during a work up for a deployment. A handful of us were trained on the Remington 870 with rubber shot. They were garbage as half the time there would just be a big flame and the rubber balls would roll out the barrel.

Nothing's better than a good scrap with a stout club resulting in immediate arrests...

 

[Kirkhill]

That becomes less about crowd control and more about terrorism. But you can't treat each protest as a terrorist event.

No, but surely you need to have a plan and an ability, especially in the gre/ay zone, to shift rapidly, and at scale, from competiton to crisis.

Protestors can bring their own air forces with them today. Aerial bottles of piss, acid, molotovs, ball bearings and nails.....

 

[PrairieFella]

No, but surely you need to have a plan and an ability, especially in the gre/ay zone, to shift rapidly, and at scale, from competiton to crisis.

Protestors can bring their own air forces with them today. Aerial bottles of piss, acid, molotovs, ball bearings and nails.....

Sounds like a job for the police. The CAF would be wise to never conduct riot control again. We have enough cops in this country, the military should focus on military matters.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Sounds like a job for the police. The CAF would be wise to never conduct riot control again. We have enough cops in this country, the military should focus on military matters.

In theory I’m 100% with you.

In reality, quite a bit of new kit being acquired requires the military to protect the kit, and that includes against rioters/ agitators who may actually breach base security. Although I’m not sure if at that point “riot control” will be the actual response or more likely breach containment and effective neutralization through various means. Certainly not cease and desist letters or firmly worded verbal commands.


Image of RCAF airfield security team courtesy of DND PAO.

 

[KevinB]

I recall my battalion had to do riot control training during a work up for a deployment. A handful of us were trained on the Remington 870 with rubber shot. They were garbage as half the time there would just be a big flame and the rubber balls would roll out the barrel.

There where a lot of old loads in the system for training -- I know the CA picked up a lot of old RCMP ammo as well as some Ski Team hand me downs that where badly stale @AmmoTech90 will probably know more.

Most Deployments (at least Somalia, Cyprus, FYR and parts of Afghan) had some semblances of Riot/Crowd Control training, the amount of time dedicated to them (and resources) depended upon the mission. The original DART deployment to Rwanda - or Uganda to wait till the mission scrubbed - issued 870's to the C9 gunners as they thought it was more practical (which everyone pretty much who'd been to Africa before just groaned - and as a result the C9's came too).

 

[KevinB]

In theory I’m 100% with you.

In reality, quite a bit of new kit being acquired requires the military to protect the kit, and that includes against rioters/ agitators who may actually breach base security.

Big difference in Force Protection and AtCP Riot Control.

Although I’m not sure if at that point “riot control” will be the actual response or more likely breach containment and effective neutralization through various means. Certainly not cease and desist letters or firmly worded verbal commands.

Rioters/Protestors/Saboteurs whatever wouldn't appreciate the international requirements for security applications...

Image of RCAF airfield security team courtesy of DND PAO.

Nice, but I'm sure the RCAF will find a way to parlay that into AC-130's

 

[Czech_pivo]

There where a lot of old loads in the system for training -- I know the CA picked up a lot of old RCMP ammo as well as some Ski Team hand me downs that where badly stale @AmmoTech90 will probably know more.

Most Deployments (at least Somalia, Cyprus, FYR and parts of Afghan) had some semblances of Riot/Crowd Control training, the amount of time dedicated to them (and resources) depended upon the mission. The original DART deployment to Rwanda - or Uganda to wait till the mission scrubbed - issued 870's to the C9 gunners as they thought it was more practical (which everyone pretty much who'd been to Africa before just groaned - and as a result the C9's came too).

I seem to remember a beautiful pic of a CDN Pioneer Platoon (with beards that would make Mike Hegseth cry) on the bridge in Mitrovica in Kosovo doing some spectacular crowd control/riot control performance in the past. Wonder if anyone is able to post it?

 

[brihard]

I seem to remember a beautiful pic of a CDN Pioneer Platoon (with beards that would make Mike Hegseth cry) on the bridge in Mitrovica in Kosovo doing some spectacular crowd control/riot control performance in the past. Wonder if anyone is able to post it?

Just Google “Lumberjack Commandos”. Guaranteed you’ll get the pic almost immediately.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sounds like a job for the police. The CAF would be wise to never conduct riot control again. We have enough cops in this country, the military should focus on military matters.

So the Mounties should maintain their own CUAS force. To be used in conjunction with their crowd control teams.

Do they need to heavy up their ERTs to deal with an Oka style situation reinforced by drones and RPGs?

And while we are at it, local protection, infrastructure, vital points. That is their job as well?

 

[RangerRay]

I seem to remember a beautiful pic of a CDN Pioneer Platoon (with beards that would make Mike Hegseth cry) on the bridge in Mitrovica in Kosovo doing some spectacular crowd control/riot control performance in the past. Wonder if anyone is able to post it?

Glorious. Petey would have a heart attack.

 

[KevinB]

So the Mounties should maintain their own CUAS force. To be used in conjunction with their crowd control teams.

Do they need to heavy up their ERTs to deal with an Oka style situation reinforced by drones and RPGs?

And while we are at it, local protection, infrastructure, vital points. That is their job as well?

It appears to me you are being intentionally obtuse and ignorant on this.

They is only 24hrs in a day, and only so many workable hours, as a result you can’t have a ‘does all entity’. Nor in a democracy should you.

Policing Canadians is a LE role. The CAF only comes into play in situations where it is no longer a LE role, or there is a major manpower shortage, and then you want to keep them out of LE role activities as much as possible.

Individual freedoms are a bastion of a stable democracy, so yes some security is sacrificial in order to maintain those freedoms.

While there may be a limited requirement for the certain elements of the RCMP to have have some C-UAS capabilities, it’s not a requirement for the bulk of them.

Situations like Oka aren’t everyday occurrences, Gustafson Lake is the only only recent example I can think of, and that was over 20 years ago. It was a fair amount smaller but more kinetic than Oka. So no it isn’t reasonable for that to be a LE response issue.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We have enough cops in this country,

I'm pretty sure the OPP and RCMP are quite undermanned.

I'm not sure about other provincial police or city police.

We might have a hard time if large scale protests kick off in more than one city.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't want what I said misunderstood. It was an insurrection, but the legal mechanism to bring troops into play for Operation SALON was as a result of a formal written request for Aid of the Civil Power by the Province of Quebec to the Federal government under the NDA.

Insurrection was a part of the War Measures Act. By then, the War Measures Act used by Trudeau in 1970 had been replaced by the Emergencies Act. Under Part II of that Act the the Federal government can (without a provincial request) declare a Public Order Emergency - it doesn't directly mention insurrection. That's what was used in Ottawa in 2022. It is initiated by the Feds and gives them various powers to act.

Note that the term "insurrection" is also part of the definition of an "emergency" under the NDA (along with riot, invasion, armed conflict whether real or apprehended.) Under the NDA, a situation of an emergency allows the government to do specific things such as placing the CAF or a part of it on active service (NDA 31(1)(a); put a pause on releases (NDA 30)

Op Salon however was a standard Aid of the Civil Power request.

Thanks. To be honest, my mind was thinking October Crisis when I wrote that; although in hindsight that was still aid to the civil power and, if I recall, largely site/infrastructure security. The arrests, investigation were carried out by the police as I recall.

Recalling watching the events on Oka, it was difficult to envision the military as being in aid or support of law enforcement since the military presence was very much front and centre, to point that it seems they took over. I don't recall much of any coverage of the SQ once the military deployed; although they were obviously there, somewhere.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Just Google “Lumberjack Commandos”. Guaranteed you’ll get the pic almost immediately.

Yes, I say that one but its not the one that is etched in my mind. The one etched in my mind is one what showed a few of these bearded Pioneers physically picking up protestors like they were tic tacs and moving them along. I think it may have been front page news on the NY Times.

 

[lenaitch]

So the Mounties should maintain their own CUAS force. To be used in conjunction with their crowd control teams.

Do they need to heavy up their ERTs to deal with an Oka style situation reinforced by drones and RPGs?

And while we are at it, local protection, infrastructure, vital points. That is their job as well?

Beyond a reminder that there are large police services of jurisdiction beyond the RCMP, law enforcement tactics and equipment generally follow the society they exist in. In my time, it evolved from .38 revolvers, no body armour and few dedicated specialty teams to semi autos, a rifle in every cruiser, containment teams, tactical teams and public order teams. Should Canadian society devolve to employing higher orders of weapons during riots, no doubt law enforcement will respond.

Most major services already deploy UAVs, 'manned' aviation units and an array of surveillance systems. Surely you're not suggesting that civilian law enforcement be able to launch aerial weapons into a civilian crowd.

Use-of-force equipment is governed by legislation and the use of force governed by the law. I have an annoying neighbour who believes that police should be generally unarmed (like the UK). My response to him is it is an arms race that we didn't start.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Op Salon. The summer/fall of 1990.
Mohawk reserve issues in Oka/Awkwesasne.
Started as a dispute over a golf course, led to bridge closure and a SQ raid in which one officer was killed - and an armed stand off that required 5bde.

Okay, familiar with the Oka Crisis. It was just that particular photo that I was wondering about.

My bad for not being more specific.

 

[Maxman1]

The full context for the photo is the teen was non-fatally with a bayonet, which created headlines of "Unarmed Canadian teen bayoneted by soldiers."

 

[dapaterson]

I'm pretty sure the OPP and RCMP are quite undermanned.

I'm not sure about other provincial police or city police.

We might have a hard time if large scale protests kick off in more than one city.

To the best of my knowledge there are only three provincial police forces - Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland/ Labrador. Other provinces are reliant on the RCMP.

 

[Kirkhill]

To be absolutely and 100% transparent on this.

My expectation is that my tax dollars will provide my kids with insurance against the unexpected.

I get no comfort from being told:

A, it will never happen
B, its someone else's job

 

[Kirkhill]

German Cabinet Approves Law To Shoot Down Threatening Drones

Major aviation disruptions and glaring security concerns amid of spate of drone incursions across Europe have spurred German officials to take action.

www.twz.com

German Federal Police given powers to shoot down drones.

EU's von der Leyen urges response to hybrid warfare threats – DW – 10/08/2025

Recent drone incidents demonstrate that Europe is facing a threat of "hybrid warfare," and to combat this threat, EU chief Ursula von der Leyen said that deterrence is necessary.

www.dw.com