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Global decrease in population

Sure, just a practical apprenticeship that started when they were kids. When you look at standard times for medieval trades they spent a really long time before they were journeymen, and it's really no different now, just formalized at schools instead of learning from your famliy.

Modern farming also has a ton of agricultural science behind it, and really nothing wrong about 2,3 or 4 year programs for people to get standardized learning along with advances in the field.

If you've ever had a shitty mentor there are a lot of downsides to all OJT as well, and it's a lot harder to unlearn bad habits or things that are just wrong than get it right the first time.

There is a world of difference between offering an education and requiring an education.

If I, as a farmer, tradesman or lawyer, want to improve my chances and seek out better information to assist me that is my right that is one thing. Liberal.

If I, as a farmer, tradesman or lawyer , am denied the right to earn a living due to the lack of a government approved certificate that is another. Illiberal.
 
Sure, just a practical apprenticeship that started when they were kids. When you look at standard times for medieval trades they spent a really long time before they were journeymen, and it's really no different now, just formalized at schools instead of learning from your famliy.

Modern farming also has a ton of agricultural science behind it, and really nothing wrong about 2,3 or 4 year programs for people to get standardized learning along with advances in the field.

If you've ever had a shitty mentor there are a lot of downsides to all OJT as well, and it's a lot harder to unlearn bad habits or things that are just wrong than get it right the first time.
Most apprenticeships were away from the family, back in the day. In fact British culture at the time felt that it was best that children 13 and up be educated/trained outside of the family.
 
There is a world of difference between offering an education and requiring an education.

If I, as a farmer, tradesman or lawyer, want to improve my chances and seek out better information to assist me that is my right that is one thing. Liberal.

If I, as a farmer, tradesman or lawyer , am denied the right to earn a living due to the lack of a government approved certificate that is another. Illiberal.
Using those 3 as an example is pretty ridiculous; if a farmer has a run of bad crops because they don't know how to adapt then they are out of business, if an untrained/unqualified person tries to do something like electrical, welding, or engineering does things then other people can and have been hurt/killed. Sure, certified people get it wrong, but properly regulated professions and trades also have disciplinary powers with actual authority.

Requiring certification may be illiberal in the sense of having rules, but that's the trade off of a functioning society with reasonable minimum safety standards. And a lot of the certifications allow people to get qualified with demonstration of equivalent experience with some kind of performance verification so it's not like the formal education is the only way to get certified for a lot of trades.

Including requirements for hairdressers is a bit absurd, but an all or nothing approach to certification would be pretty ignorant. There also isn't an insurance company on the planet that would support that, so a lot of it is driven by capitalism.

But the never ending pseudo intellectual disdain for formal education carries on I guess, and we should all just have huge families that stick to the inherited trades of our name sakes.
 
Most apprenticeships were away from the family, back in the day. In fact British culture at the time felt that it was best that children 13 and up be educated/trained outside of the family.
Sure, and what happened with my dad's family for the most part, but every single one of the boys up until that point was helping out with some basic stone masonry, even if only one of my uncles took it up as a trade. The rest went of to trade schools and apprenticeships in the different fields they went into.

I guess my point was, by the time they were journeymen, they all had about 10 years of formal training and apprenticeship time under their belt, plus informal time when they were younger, so it's not like they weren't getting an education, just different then how it's done now.
 
Using those 3 as an example is pretty ridiculous; if a farmer has a run of bad crops because they don't know how to adapt then they are out of business, if an untrained/unqualified person tries to do something like electrical, welding, or engineering does things then other people can and have been hurt/killed. Sure, certified people get it wrong, but properly regulated professions and trades also have disciplinary powers with actual authority.

Requiring certification may be illiberal in the sense of having rules, but that's the trade off of a functioning society with reasonable minimum safety standards. And a lot of the certifications allow people to get qualified with demonstration of equivalent experience with some kind of performance verification so it's not like the formal education is the only way to get certified for a lot of trades.

Including requirements for hairdressers is a bit absurd, but an all or nothing approach to certification would be pretty ignorant. There also isn't an insurance company on the planet that would support that, so a lot of it is driven by capitalism.

But the never ending pseudo intellectual disdain for formal education carries on I guess, and we should all just have huge families that stick to the inherited trades of our name sakes.

Still not getting it.

Freely acquiring an education and certification is not equivalent to requiring an education and certification.

If I want to putter around my own farm, build my own shack, tinker around my own tool shed, or represent myself in court that should be a valid course of action. I may be a fool and I may fail across the board but that is up to me.

I may not be able to sell anything I make because it doesn't have a recognized guarantor to vouch for my products, but again, that is my choice.

But, if I can create something that I can then submit to CSA or UL to be objectively evaluated and certified so that it finds a market then that too should be, and is, a valid course of action.

I struggle with governments and societies that seek to control access to the labour force through certification.

I earned my degree 50 years ago. For 35 years I was gainfully employed in my field in multiple jurisdictions. I had the option of joining a professional society but I declined.

Then government employed people in a related field decided their bargaining power would be improved if they were recognized as professionals like professional engineers. They created an institute that was recognized by the government and absconded with the dictionary, declaring ownership of words, including the words used to describe the activities in which I had been engaged for 35 years to feed my family.

I engineered systems for the food industry. That is what I learned at school. That is the craft I honed over 35 years (now 50) of employment for multiple clients and employers. I was employed as a sales engineer and as a food engineer but I couldn't descrbe myself as that because the Engineering Brotherhood owned that word.

In most/many jurisdictions they do not own the word. They own the designation "Professional" engineer.
And people are free to make of that designation what they will when hiring.

In my case I reverted back to the designation granted when I graduated, Food Scientist, and then spent endless hours explaining what a Food Scientist was and how it could benefit clients.

Then the previously referred to institute declared, with government approval, that they owned the words "Food Scientist" and that I was no longer allowed to practice locally unless I paid them their geld and got their rubber stamp.

I was still allowed to practice in my home jurisdiction without paying mail. I could practice in the US and was welcomed. I could practice in Denmark, Sweden and the UK.

But I couldn't practice in my home province, or my home country outside of the province which granted me my degree and permitted me to practice without charging me a continuing tax for the privilege of working.
 
Aaaaand....the Nobel Prize in Economics goes for work on "creative destruction".
Funnily enough, I shared a house with the one winners son, when I was in University. The son also took economics in university, talk about a long shadow.
 
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