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RUMINT of Canada wanting more C-17's

I know a 330 can’t move a Leo2 or LAV, so I think it’s important to differentiate what one means by Strategic Lift.

Most of NATO doesn’t need or think about Strategic Lift in the same manner, as they are already in Europe. Not so for Canada and America.

The 330 is a people mover - that can also take some smaller pieces of cargo in the lower deck.
8 x 463L Mil pallets
Then standard commercial airline luggage unit load device containers
1 x LD-6
1 x LD-3

The J Herc takes 8 pallets, the same as the A330
The KC-46 and C-17 both take 18
The C-5M takes 36
 
I hate to burst a lot of people's bubbles when they look at the C330s and go, wow, think of all the stuff we can move. 8 of the 9 will be deemed to be Air to Air refuelers as their primary role. As much as I believe this is overkill, the crewing numbers will be based on this, meaning there will be fewer individuals on Squadron trained to fly as Flight attendants to allow for flying passengers. I would be surprised if, excluding the VVIP bird, more than one line of tasking is assigned to do passenger flights.

I am also well aware of the DTEP process and how the increase of positions works. I should have been a little clearer. Its not the positions that is the issue, it is having the other L1s agree to assign a larger portion of the SIP to the RCAF so they can recruit and train aircrew, maintenance and logistics personnel to handle more airframes. Maybe we'll need to change the old ways of asking if people like camping and assigning them Infantry to asking if they were a fan of Top gun, and then make them traffic techs.
 
ytz said:
Converting that extra finding into trained personnel is going to take a decade given the challenges of the recruiting system, throughput of the schools, shortage of instructors, etc. It's not an overnight problem that money can solve. Especially for tech trades which take 12-24 to reach OFP.



I just don't get the obsession with a specific airframe vs. capability. Airlift is undergoing a massive expansion as is, with the 330s, more than the doubling the output of the outgoing Polaris fleet. And probably getting even larger. Airlift has grown so much, they are starting to run out of room in Trenton. If we end up with more Hercs and C17s, they might have to move out the 330s, which would be entertaining after they spent/are spending a billion dollars to make Trenton ready for them.
Click to expand...
how about Edmonton Namao lots of room there oh sorry I forgot we don't need a logistics base in Alberta
 
ytz said:
More a question of right tool for the job. The C17 is a high demand low density asset that is expensive to operate. It's best reserved for situations that really need it. The 330s should be the backbone of strat airlift going forward, as is the case for a lot of our allies.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't get more C17s if the chance arises. But the dreams of reserve squadrons and dozens of C17s is kinda ridiculous.
Click to expand...
First, nine 330s is probably not enough, especially with one reserved for VVIP.

Second, the C-17 will carry loads the 330 simply cannot. The 330 is a fine aircraft, but it is not a replacement for the C-17.
 
Maxman1 said:
First, nine 330s is probably not enough, especially with one reserved for VVIP.

Second, the C-17 will carry loads the 330 simply cannot. The 330 is a fine aircraft, but it is not a replacement for the C-17.
Click to expand...
Convince LocMart to open the C-5 line ;)
 
captloadie said:
I hate to burst a lot of people's bubbles when they look at the C330s and go, wow, think of all the stuff we can move. 8 of the 9 will be deemed to be Air to Air refuelers as their primary role. As much as I believe this is overkill, the crewing numbers will be based on this, meaning there will be fewer individuals on Squadron trained to fly as Flight attendants to allow for flying passengers. I would be surprised if, excluding the VVIP bird, more than one line of tasking is assigned to do passenger flights.
Click to expand...
That's doesn't sound like a very "jointy" attitude on the part of the RCAF.

Last time I looked, the MRTT in MRTT stood for Multi-Role Tanker Transport. The refueling capability grafted onto the airframe of the CC330 doesn't impact its transport function one whit. Same same for a tanker crew - it should be quite capable of performing transport functions. That leaves the only outstanding issue the question of in-cabin flight attendants which, IMHO, is something the RCAF needs to address so that we don't end up with a "I know you need to move 2,000 troops fast but we just don't have a cabin attendant available" situation.

And a VVIP transport is quickly (?) reconfigurable into a straight transport when priorities dictate.

I find it very hard to have my bubble - and perhaps that of the whole army - burst that all but one or two of these very useful transport aircraft will be limited to tanker duties.

🍻
 
The C-5M is a fantastic but uniquely American capability, and don't get me wrong, I love that bird. But it is a purely strategic transport. For a country like Canada, I'd much rather have a larger number of C-17, a plane that can do both strategic and tactical airlifting. Ever heard of paratroopers coming out of a C-5? I haven't.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
The C-5M is a fantastic but uniquely American capability, and don't get me wrong, I love that bird. But it is a purely strategic transport. For a country like Canada, I'd much rather have a larger number of C-17, a plane that can do both strategic and tactical airlifting. Ever heard of paratroopers coming out of a C-5? I haven't.
Click to expand...
You can parachute out of any aircraft. I had a family friend (now deceased) who jumped from a Lancaster.

He was the navigator, they were shot down, and he had to escape overland supported by the resistance...
 
dapaterson said:
You can parachute out of any aircraft. I had a family friend (now deceased) who jumped from a Lancaster.

He was the navigator, they were shot down, and he had to escape overland supported by the resistance...
Click to expand...

But they weren't paratroopers.

Your view is no different than the Navy's view that every ship can be a minesweeper ... once.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
The C-5M is a fantastic but uniquely American capability, and don't get me wrong, I love that bird. But it is a purely strategic transport. For a country like Canada, I'd much rather have a larger number of C-17, a plane that can do both strategic and tactical airlifting. Ever heard of paratroopers coming out of a C-5? I haven't.
Click to expand...
Don’t get me wrong I agree.

In someways it really is irrelevant, as both lines are cold, and the numbers need to restart either are way beyond Canada’s grasp.

I beleive all the older C-5 bodies where harvested for the C-5M upgrades / so unless one can find some boneyard birds, neither is an option.

I fact there really isn’t any heavy lift air being built now.
 
Kirkhill said:
I still think there is a case to be made for adding a couple more vessels of the same design to those routes just to manage that exact situation without disrupting traffic.
Click to expand...
Those 2 ships are getting long on the tooth and will need replacement soon. I’m curious if the government is looking on the used market or sitting on their hands.
 
Nvlgzr said:
Those 2 ships are getting long on the tooth and will need replacement soon. I’m curious if the government is looking on the used market or sitting on their hands.
Click to expand...

They are about 20 years old. For merchant ships, and ferries in particular, it's not even mid-life yet.

Look at this young spry who plies her route in B.C. and Washington state. She was "old" when I joined the Navy and is still going strong:

en.wikipedia.org

MV Coho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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