Quirky
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How many fighters need to be ordered before an assembly line starts making money?
The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
- Thread starter WingsofFury
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How many fighters need to be ordered before an assembly line starts making money?
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Saab wants the same corporate welfare treatment Irving gets: free money to pay for the full plant construction/retooling and then they get to keep the profit.
Prairie canuck
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That's definitely from the Bombardier playbook. Whether Saab follows that playbook or has it's own is yet to be seen.
If or (should I say) when a major shooting war begins, everyone involved is probably going to frantically put in orders for more aircraft. LM is going to be inundated and despite ramping things up to increase its production capacity for F-35s, further delays are inevitable. If we have the ability to manufacture a secondary fighter in addition to having F-35s, we at least won’t be as badly off as some other countries should a conflagration occur.
IKnowNothing
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One of the big arguments against switching the order I've seen is the combined inneficciency of a split fighter fleet and of making the necessary infra and security investments for such a small number of airframes- my devious hat wonders if those messages have resonated in an unintended way, and the delay is in figuring a dance partner in Europe for 16 F35's. Not even off the lot, still have that new fighter smell
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When a major shooting war begins it's very likely to be a "come as you are" affair. Losses will likely far exceed any potential production capacity to replace lost aircraft (assuming that production isn't interrupted by enemy action).
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But not the F35’s, not going to have any meaningful losses at all, no need to gear up replacements at all.
Rainbow1910
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Great to see Saab seemingly changing their bid already, when it seems only a day or so ago this factory was predicated on the RCAF placing an order. This very much is sounding to me like a pitfall in the waiting for the Canadian Government set by Bombardier and Saab together, follow along for a moment.
Saab promises 10,000 jobs for Canadians if we set up Gripen E construction and assembly in Canada in conjunction with Bombardier, Canadian Govt agrees because there is no strings attached to adopt the aircraft. Fast forward a few years when the facility is either mostly done or finished with substantial Canadian investment, Ukraine's fanciful 100-150 letter of intent for Gripen's is slashed or vanished entirely because they were betting on somebody to pay their bills for them. Saab turns to Canada and goes "well those 10,000 jobs were contingent on that Ukrainian order, so Canada needs to place an order or we slow/shutter this brand new facility due to lack of work."
That sweet deal suddenly becomes a big sunk fallacy, and you have some very difficult decisions to make for something that was pitched as not being a prerequisite in the first place. Now it's 2035 and you are being forced to adopt another inferior fighter in a world of stealth jets and unmanned wingman fighters.
Saab isn't any different than any other player in military industrial complex, for as much as they like to lean into the friendly, cost effective and neutral Scandinavian facade. They will gladly take advantage of us as much as Irving, Davie or any American company ever would.
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And there it is -
www.thestar.com
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Pete Hoekstra said it will not be easy to restart the now-stalled trade talks, and urged Canada to "harmonize" as much as possible with the U.S. on a range of
www.thestar.com
HavokFour
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And there it is -
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Pete Hoekstra said it will not be easy to restart the now-stalled trade talks, and urged Canada to "harmonize" as much as possible with the U.S. on a range of
You know it's bad when you can't tell if it's just him being the worst ambassador they've sent us in recent memory, or the official position.
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There’s a difference?
I will always be a dual fleet even tri fleet person. 1 Platform does not do it all, no matter how much we want to believe it will. We also open ourselves to fleet wide groundings with a single fleet.
If Canada was to buy 65 or 88 F35s and 100 Gripens (or F16, I would prefer F15s)then I think it would be a good start to rebuilding the Airforce fighter fleet.
We could use the Gripen for our aerial acrobatic team, a new (restart) Nato fighter training plan and Forward deploy and use them for our Misions overseas that do not require a Stealth Aircraft.
As for those who think that SAAB will pack up shop (Gripen) and leave jobs swinging in the wind have not read the overall context of what so being offered. The 10,000 jobs include Fighter Assembly, manufacturing, Surveillance aircraft, ground equipment, R&D for future system, land sea and air. In my opinion this is a large opportunity for Canada to partner with a country who values us as a valuable partner not only servants and a hassle to deal with. Canada brings a lot to the table as far as R&D in various tech industries along with skilled labor, and support . We also have large tracks of land they can test new equipment on, land sea and air.
If Canada was to buy 65 or 88 F35s and 100 Gripens (or F16, I would prefer F15s)then I think it would be a good start to rebuilding the Airforce fighter fleet.
We could use the Gripen for our aerial acrobatic team, a new (restart) Nato fighter training plan and Forward deploy and use them for our Misions overseas that do not require a Stealth Aircraft.
As for those who think that SAAB will pack up shop (Gripen) and leave jobs swinging in the wind have not read the overall context of what so being offered. The 10,000 jobs include Fighter Assembly, manufacturing, Surveillance aircraft, ground equipment, R&D for future system, land sea and air. In my opinion this is a large opportunity for Canada to partner with a country who values us as a valuable partner not only servants and a hassle to deal with. Canada brings a lot to the table as far as R&D in various tech industries along with skilled labor, and support . We also have large tracks of land they can test new equipment on, land sea and air.
The US is getting a bit desperate for support I think. They have failed to overall strongarm Europe into buy America.
Dual fleet may have some merits. If going 5th and 6th gen. But we're replacing a 4th gen fleet with a fleet of 4.5 Gen (at best) and 5th Gen. We're going to do this in the 2030s as the major powers are starting to field 6th gen and proliferate 5th Gen platforms everywhere. See Trump selling F-35s to Saudi. Putin selling Su-57s to Algeria. And China selling J-35s to Pakistan.
We're also doing this right as autonomy is taking off and forces like the USAF plan to have 3 CCAs for every manned jet. So we're going to fly Gripens to do things that others will use CCAs and drones for. And we're doing to do this into the 2050s. At least.
All this for jobs. But even in Brazil, Saab themselves (on their website) say that their assembly plant has 200 jobs:
www.saab.com
We're also doing this right as autonomy is taking off and forces like the USAF plan to have 3 CCAs for every manned jet. So we're going to fly Gripens to do things that others will use CCAs and drones for. And we're doing to do this into the 2050s. At least.
All this for jobs. But even in Brazil, Saab themselves (on their website) say that their assembly plant has 200 jobs:
Gripen final assembly line
Gavião Peixoto (SP) The production line for the F-39 Gripen E was inaugurated in Brazil on May 9, 2023. This marks another historic milestone in the F-39 Gripen program, establishing the first production line for the fighter outside of Sweden.
www.saab.com
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Yeah I mean it's tough to call out the US for being a poor buisness partner when we're openly discussing cutting a signed contract. That saidthis is another example of why this man is a poor ambassador; he's just sewered any hope of Canada buying the F35.And there it is -
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Pete Hoekstra said it will not be easy to restart the now-stalled trade talks, and urged Canada to "harmonize" as much as possible with the U.S. on a range of
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Exactly. If, negotiations were to resume, it will be one sided in favour of our submission to their demands. Trump has been clear that the US has all “the cards”.
He guaranteed we'd shrink our order. More may be ordered as a trade concession. Or LockMart ups workshare.
I don't think we will see many of the 4-4.5 Gens going anywhere soon. The F16, 15 etc will be around for another 15-20 years.
I feel Saab has found a potential partner in Canada that has been looking at and wanting the 6th gen and even 7th gen platforms. Canada said a number of years ago the limitation on fighters and performance was the Pilot, if we can replace the pilot with reliable AI and or remote control then we have a winner. The US looks at us as a provider of parts but not as a partner but as a supplier, defiantly not as an equal.
We have lots of talent in Canada that works on tech for the various programs tied directly and indirectly to the US programs. I wonder if the short comings on the F35 latest block updates are due to lack of co-operation from the US to the various system integrators required.
If Canada and lets Say SAAB join forces and work towards a similar goal. Who knows what can be achieved. Canadian Aerospace has done some amazing projects over the years. Some we know about, many will never be talked about. But they are the forefront of senser integration and fusion.
I feel Saab has found a potential partner in Canada that has been looking at and wanting the 6th gen and even 7th gen platforms. Canada said a number of years ago the limitation on fighters and performance was the Pilot, if we can replace the pilot with reliable AI and or remote control then we have a winner. The US looks at us as a provider of parts but not as a partner but as a supplier, defiantly not as an equal.
We have lots of talent in Canada that works on tech for the various programs tied directly and indirectly to the US programs. I wonder if the short comings on the F35 latest block updates are due to lack of co-operation from the US to the various system integrators required.
If Canada and lets Say SAAB join forces and work towards a similar goal. Who knows what can be achieved. Canadian Aerospace has done some amazing projects over the years. Some we know about, many will never be talked about. But they are the forefront of senser integration and fusion.
Swampbuggy
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If this pointless bastard hadn’t thrown so much fuel on the fire, it’s unlikely there would be any doubt as to the F 35 purchase. His mouthy, counterintuitive “diplomacy” has made it politically and practically unpalatable for a large percentage of Canadians to keep buying American kit.
If I needed an F150, but the only dealer in town was run by an overbearing shitheel that spreads lies and badmouths me, I’d be looking at alternatives too…particularly if the salesman engages in threat tactics to get me to buy it. I think it’s disingenuous and not human nature to suggest that you wouldn’t kick the tires on an alternative offer, even if it’s Nissan Frontiers that offer 3/4 of the capabilities, rather than go hat in hand to someone who treats you with utter contempt.
I have no doubts whatsoever about what the F 35 brings to the fight. It’s always been the best possible option, especially given our involvement with the project. But the stupidity South of the border has put the government and the RCAF in an incredibly tight spot and there will be unpleasant consequences no matter what gets chosen.
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And there it is -
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Future of trade talks depends on Canada’s purchase of American fighter jets, U.S. ambassador says
Pete Hoekstra said it will not be easy to restart the now-stalled trade talks, and urged Canada to "harmonize" as much as possible with the U.S. on a range of
I wish that guy would just shut his trap.
